Everything above the diagonal line representing pocket pairs is suited. Each of those boxes represents 4 combos. Everything below the line is unsuited. Each of these boxes represents 12 combos. While it looks like hands are distributed evenly between suited and unsuited, in reality there are 3 times more unsuited combos than suited ones.
2 Likes
Yes Warlock,
I was refferring to above/below the diag line of PPs, tyvm
I think this topic should have its own thread, but can you answer
my other question. 23, 24, 25, 26 can make a str8, but 27 cannot,
therefore why still are thier odds lower, when they have more draws?
27 can only draw 2s and 7s , so 2 boats and 2 quads
26, 23 can draw the same, but can also draw 1 str8.
25, 24, have those 4 plus 2 str8 draws
I fully understand say 27 vs 26 where the 7 is basically already
ahead, so that is a %+, but why doesnt the up/down str8 draw
not add more to the odds. The basic odds of suited was 3%
so I would think even 26, (23) (with 1 xtra draw inclusive) would be
even or slightly ahead, and 24, 25 (with 2 draws exclusive) deffinitly
should be ahead by 1-2%.
Hands like 45, 46, 47, 48, 49…
49 has no draws, 45 has 4 draws, 46, 47 has 3 draws, 48 has 1 draw.
Basically when a person looks @ there hand they see 3 things…
How high the cards are, are they suited, are they connected.
I’m just not see’n the bump for connected while I see a clear bump
for suited cards. Why isn’t there a diag line for worst starting hands
like there is for PPs… such as 27, 38, 49, 5T, 6J, 7Q, 8K, 9A. None of
these hands can draw to a str8, why are they the lowest % on thier
respective row ?
Sassy
These probabilities are for all-in situations so playability is not an issue. The probability of making a pair outweighs the probability of making a straight so the high-card value outweighs the straight potential. As the higher of the 2 cards increases in rank, it has greater probability to outdraw more hands. Take K5 vs 7/2 as opposed to 4/2. If the flop pairs the 5, 7/2 still has outs to a better pair while 4/2 does not. 4/2 would need runner-runner to make the straight, which is very low probability. Same thing with 77 vs 8/3 as compared to 6/3. The 8/3 has 1 live card to improve to a better pair while 6/3 would have to make the straight to improve to a winning hand.
2 Likes
Warlock,
Im NOT talking K5 vs 72 or 77 vs 83… I’m just not.
I’m talking about like, 27 vs 25, both in the “2s”…
or perhaps 1 hand being more connected than another.
Any 2 cards can hit a boat or quads, in general by that chart,
suited hands have an xtra 3% over non suited, but where is the
xtra % for connected hands ??
A flush must draw “any” 3 cards from 11 cards…
A str8 must draw a “specific” 3 cards from up to 24 cards.
Other than the simple 1 hand has the highest card…
Connected hands should have an adv over non connected hands,
just like suited has an adv over non suited does.
7-2 is the worst hand in Holdem, not 2-3 or 2-6,
yet has a 5% / 3% adv per the chart. why?
and why isn’t 24 or 25 better than 26 or 23 ?
Sassy
Sassy - you may not be but the chart is. The chart is showing is how often 1 hand wins against all other possible hands, on average. It is considering K5 vs 72, along with every other matchup. The number shown is just the average of all those results.
No, 7/2o is not the worst hand in poker, if you define that as by how it fares vs every other hand. 7/2o is an example used because it is the hand that fares worst against AA. It has no overcards to make a winning pair out of, cannot make a straight and needs 4 to make a flush, which can be dominated). 3/2o is the worst hand in poker vs a random hand.
Yes, connected hands fare better than unconnected hands and suited hands fare far better than their unsuited counterparts. Both of these advantages are outweighed by the high-card value to make a pair. This is the power of holding a single ace vs any other hand without an ace.
1 Like
I see it as somewhat of a benefit however too much is left out. When u say they are for all ins are u saying pre-flop all ins i assume? Also is this heads up, 4 handed, all 6 or 9 players, 3 players pre all in, 5 handed post flop all ins, river all ins on all diff amounts of players ? any amount of players decreasing to another amount of players in the hand after the flop, turn, etc.Too many variables that dont count for the specifics for diff scenarios like i mentioned. Almost needs to be separate charts for every amount of players in the hand even if its all in, then post flop,turn,river all ins with every amount of player in the hand. These are the specifics needed that your looking at when your sitting on a table playing any hand and changes everything. Not enough details about all of those things IMO. However that would all be prob too difficult to generate tho but deff the most precise and accurate. Its a good base to start out with but way too simple just designed for a 1 certain scenario. Cheers
As @1Warlock mentioned, the chart shows the likelihood of a given preflop hand beating a random hand, heads up, on average, at showdown on the river.
1 Like
All-in preflop vs a single random hand. The chart has limited use except maybe as a baseline for push/fold equities without taking ICM considerations into account. It doesn’t say a thing about whether anyone would or should play any of these hands or call the all-in.
You can do this easily with Equilab (free) and match up any hand/range with 1 or more other specific hands or ranges. Its a very good tool to play around with to get an idea how any hand will fare multiway.
1 Like
Thanks to everyone who replied, especially Fozman who took the trouble to include the chart. I suppose that if I were to play in tournaments it might make sense to follow these practices, but for the low-stake ring games I play it’s more fun to stay in until at least the flop.
Still not 100% sure what a “limper” is though!
1 Like
Limpers are people who simply call the big blind pre-flop instead of increasing the blind bet with a raise. It’s typically frowned upon in most situations by most experts; they advise to fold or raise instead of flat call.
Here though? Cheap flops aplenty. Doesn’t mean you can’t be somewhat smart about your limp behind range though. If people price you in with a marginal hand, sometimes it’s worth seeing a flop for 1BB.
5 Likes
Got ya warlock and coder, was in a hurry and skimmed thru the thread very fast so didnt see all the details and scenario involved that u were referring too…just read it again, makes sense…thx
2 Likes
I am more lazy than that and just read the title lol…why do the limpers go in at all…and then…take my dang hand when they get unbelievably lucky on the river…I’m like why in the He>>> were they betting?
To the Original post & TY Boxer 65 for starting the discussion,
I’ve noticed that there are a lot of limpers on this site, even among those who are “high stakes” players. Once I decide that I have a playable hand, depending on my position, EP, MP, or LP, my standard preflop raise is around 3x. People are always complaining in the chat about me being a “pot builder” or “bully”, I’ve even been called an A-hole. It’s not sound strategy to let everyone see the flop, that’s how bingo players end up getting lucky. I’m just wondering if other players who understand the importance of preflop raising have experienced this too? Sorry to get on my soap box, but limpers, especially those who complain about preflop raisers, just kind of annoy me.
Most Bingo Players do just what you are referring to, preflop raising, sometimes alliin, Have to remember it is free chips.
May not be free forever. Wow how things would change. I suggest we buy or donate to RP to keep it free, have fun and enjoy the fellowship.
Be humble winning or loosing,
Have fun, GL & May God Bless all
There are no limpers, there are only gamblers and card players.
Raising pre-flop makes you a gambler. Seeing only TWO cards out of seven and betting on the outcome makes you a gambler and many times a fool. 2-2-2 still beats A-A…
Deciding what you want to do after seeing FIVE cards makes you a card player.
3 Likes
Your theory would be correct, if all the hands had the same chance to win, which obviously isn’t the case.
Preflop Play + Positional awareness (giving you an information advantage) are key figures to play poker profitable. I am not talking about bingo allin preflop…
1 Like
Now that is some chart! AQ LtoR is 67% but AQ Up/Down is 65%?!?!?!?!?!?
I am a believer now…
@Click, suited hands (above the diagonal) have a better chance to win than non-suited hands (below the diagonal). If AQ of different suits had a higher winning percentage than AQ suited, then I’d agree that the chart looked weird. As it stands, it aligns with my expectations.
Playing poker makes you a gambler. Refusing to raise preflop makes you a bad gambler.
5 Likes
This is probably the best thing you have ever said.
3 Likes
Knowing five cards is “giving you an information advantage”…
Automatic raising pre-flop makes you a bad gambler…