Well said OSusieQ 
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If you had true free will then you could choose what you decide freely, have you ever decided to not like something you do like, or vice versa? You canât unless you have an external influence, and since all decision-making is based on a external influence then you donât have true free will. I cannot think of choice or preference or aversion which is not being influenced by external factors.
Even though I am aware that you cannot be hypnotised against your will, that does not mean you have free will, what that indicates is that whatever has influenced you to not be hypnotised to change what you believe or anything else in fact, has a greater effect and influence than the hypnotic influence. As a clinical hypnotherapist I do not know how you could possibly have come to your conclusion, I know you said you are board-certified, may I ask which board that is with and do you also have a qualified medical degree?
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While qiz serves us a hypothesis that âall decision making is based on an external influenceâ, I would suggest that the decision process is more greatly guided by how different people internalize the external influences around them. Ten people can experience the same external influences and because they have different ways to internalize those influences, reach different conclusions or adopt different beliefs.
I observe that not everyone believes in a deity, not everyone believes in the same deity, not everyone believes there is a deity, not everyoneâs beliefs about any deity remain the same throughout their lifetimes and many variances in between. So, it would seem to me that people make personal choices about what they believe regarding deities, or any other subject, and that for me, is the representation of free will.
No, thatâs exactly the opposite if you had free will, you could change it. Though you are correct in saying that no one can make a personal choice for us but neither can you, you may feel like you are making a personal choice but in fact you are only reacting to the external influences would you have experience throughout your life, in religion that is usually from childbirth in the form of indoctrination and the culture and country your born in and in matters of taste it is dependant on what you were exposed to. True free will would mean you could instantly overcome break that those influences, and no one can.
Unfortunately that is an example of lack of choice, it is your previous experiences which influence what you believe, and even though it may feel like you are making a choice, you are in fact only reacting to the experiences which have influenced you the most to date.
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Nowhere logical fallacy is exactly what you have stated, âif you donât use two believes things then you donât believe themâ the point is when it comes to free will you donât have a choice, your is based on your experiences, if you were never exposed to the idea that the moon is a giant meatball, or something that you consider relating to that conclusion, then you would not have the option to believe it or not, youâre right there is no mystery there.
Your Donald Trump example is proof of the opposite of what you are trying to establish, if it wasnât for the media you wouldnât even know who he was, and dependant on the media you consume and trust, which is usually subject to external influences which have affected you to date, then you believe as you do about him and you cannot change that belief until another more powerful influence override your previous belief. This of course can be in the various forms including, a new exposĂ©s about him, a personal interaction with him, a discussion with another individual or something he did which influences you to change your mind. And even though you internally way up how you feel about them, that is a process of comparing with how it aligns with other beliefs you already hold, beliefs which were formed from accumulation of external influences, and the most influential is the one that wins out.
You also wrote logical fallacies âcan often be used to mislead people â to trick them into believing something they otherwise wouldnât.â which is an excellent example of external influence and lack of true free will, you canât choose what will influence you and if you will be tricked.
Sorry that is incorrect, and it is not just my opinion, in fact everything you believe is in a manner of speaking automatic, you may feel it isnât but that is only because you are not looking back far enough.
You actually support the lack of free will the correctly when you say you choose to believe what the colour blue looks like because people told you that shade was called blue, it was not not your choice, people told/ influenced you, and you cannot choose to believe that blue actually looks like red no matter how hard you try, unless you are faced with some type of influence which is stronger than your current belief that it is not.
That is the same as trusting someone you make that choice based on qualities that you have come to recognise as trustworthy or you take a chance on them based on some other external influence, such as their level of intelligence or attractiveness, which in themselves are also measured by external external standards which you were influenced enough to adopt.
This might help most. Itâs textbook.
Free will is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, culpability, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen. It is also connected with the concepts of advice, persuasion, deliberation, and prohibition.
Traditionally, only actions that are freely willed are seen as deserving
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Why do you believe that? It is obvious you donât have the choice, even in the most basic of things such as how are you like your coffee, assuming you like coffee, to more complicated one such as responding to the original post.
Yes, you are correct insane that the decision process is guided bye how different people into analysed and externalized influences around them, that is in fact the point I am making, the choices you make based on those influences are actually not choices, they are reactions subject to the influences which had the greatest effect on you. You canât choose which influence has the greatest effect on you, and therefore you have no true free will.
As to the question of belief in a deity, in the vast majority of cases, most people definitely do not have a choice, they believe in the deity corresponding to the religion which their parents, society and culture indoctrinated them to believe, which also happened to their parents in turn, and it usually was the predominant religion in a certain country or area their birth. This has changed somewhat since the advent of greater migration and communication across countries and cultures, exposing us all to more alternatives. This is the same with non believers, and rarely changes for anybody unless they are exposed to an alternative of greater influence.
Everyone has a choice in life depending on your beliefs. Itâs your â free will â that keeps you on your path or not. Leave it up to your â higher power â to guide you.
âIf you had true free will then you could choose what you decide freely, have you ever decided to not like something you do like, or vice versa? You canât unless you have an external influence, and since all decision-making is based on a external influence then you donât have true free will. I cannot think of choice or preference or aversion which is not being influenced by external factors.â
I understand your point. It is true that our choices are often influenced by external factors, such as our upbringing, our experiences, and the people around us. However, I believe that we still have a degree of free will, even if it is limited. For example, we can choose how we respond to external influences. We can choose to let them control us, or we can choose to resist them and make our own decisions.
I think that the important thing is to be aware of the factors that are influencing our choices. Once we are aware of these factors, we can make more informed decisions about how we want to live our lives.
Here are some examples of how we can exercise our free will, even if it is limited:
- We can choose to surround ourselves with positive people who will support our goals.
- We can choose to educate ourselves about the world around us so that we can make informed decisions.
- We can choose to set goals for ourselves and work towards achieving them.
- We can choose to forgive others and let go of grudges.
- We can choose to be kind and compassionate to others.
So, while our free will is limited, it is not completely gone. We still have the power to make choices that will shape our lives and the lives of others. Thanks everyone on this thread for sharing your thoughts and contributing to this interesting topic.
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qiz,this previous statement you made seems to be the underlying premise in your discussions. I will observe that the payoff for embracing this belief is that you donât have to take any personal responsibility or accountability for your decisions about what you believe or donât believe, because, you might argue, you didnât really have a choice in the matter - it was all just responses to your environment, stimulus or socialization. An incredibly convenient concoction or theory that completely takes you off the hook.
For me, the more devastating consequence of empowering your premise is that it seems to work against the notion that you hold the rudder of your life to decide, choose, change, transform, be responsible and accountable for those choices you make. I acknowledge this basic underlying belief that you do not have free will, that your decisions are automatic, are your views to choose and hold, and also your choice to live your life out of, but I prefer to choose differently - no offense intended.
I wish to thank you for sharing your point of view and contributing to this threat. I have been stunned to learn about the various beliefs people have on this subject and that has been an eye opener for me.
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I understand this may appear the case and it certainly feels like we have at least some free will and is how we wish to see it, but in all the examples you gave you may appear to make those choices based on some level of free will but in actuality you are predisposed to make the decisions you think you are making based on the type of person you have become, which is an accumulation of the experiences you have had throughout your life which influence what feels like a choice, so no nobody can actually choose how they respond to external influences or to what degree, because regardless of how they respond, they were always going to respond that way and will continue to do so until a stronger influence/experience overrides the pre-existing ones. For example if you dislike someone because of their personality or something they previously did which offended you, will not change your mind about them unless they change their personality to one that you find more favourable or you change yours or they do something which influencers you to think about them in a more favourably.
You canât choose to surround yourself with positive people
Oh yes you can !!!
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Hello1RainbowBear,
It is true that the fact that we donât have actual free will means that we donât really have a final choice in what we decide, but that in no way dismisses or diminishes our responsibility and accountability, because unless the subject is mentally compromised, then their decisions were formulated by and through their life experiences in and from the societies and cultures they interact with, this includes their preferences, expectations morals, ethics and laws, so they would be well aware of what they are and the consequences, and those societies formulate and enforce the expectations, rules and applicable punishments. The arguement about irresponsiblility has been discussed to quite an extent in moral and ethical philosophy and legal and criminal policy debates.
Though there is still proof to it, in the past it was believed that there was nothing wrong with slavery and everybody thought the world was flat, now those people canât be held responsible for what they believed especially since it was the norm, but that does not make it right, and if they were moved into a society or time where slavery is against the law and there is knowledge that the world is a globe then they would still be held legally responsible if they enslave someone and they would be ridiculed if they maintained that the world was flat, and even more so if they were made aware of it, but lack of knowledge or agreement with what is right in their current society does not excuse their responsibility, hans we have âIgnorance of the law is no excuseâ, so it doesnât let you off the hook at all, in fact as opposed to believing that a deity controls your life and you can get away with anything as long as you do what you believe it desires or repent before dying as is required in some religions, you are totally responsible, rewardable and punishable for your actions.
So basically what we believe, or what we believe we choose, is the relevant to whether it is right or true/ factual.
You were even incapable of choosing not accept the reality that you donât have free will and to call it a convenient concoction or theory, because you are only demonstrating your current beliefs formulated from your previous experiences which influence do you.
I very much appreciate your thanks and your contribution also, you may be stunned to learn about the various beliefs people have on this subject, but for me, I have been researching and debating it for quite a number of years now, and from both sides of the arguement, you may be surprised to know that originally I strongly believed and argued for the existence of true free will.
Try this from American Scientific
So, the question of free will boils down to one of metaphysics: are our felt volitional states reducible to something outside and independent of consciousness? If so, there cannot be free will, for we can only identify with contents of consciousness. But if, instead, neurophysiology is merely how our felt volitional states present themselves to observation from an outside perspectiveâthat is, if neurophysiology is merely the image of conscious willing, not its cause or sourceâthen we do have free will; for in the latter case, our choices are determined by volitional states we intuitively regard as expressions of ourselves.
subconscious - of or concerning the part of the mind of which one is not fully aware but which influences oneâs actions and feelings.
The subconscious is the unseen master that controls our actions and even our thoughts and emotions. Free will is an illusion. The idea that we can choose our beliefs is an illusion.
Our âchoicesâ are nothing but the end results of a life-long chain of cause/effect relationships and our perceptions of them.
There are ways to alter our subconscious though, or at least some parts of it; hypnosis, creative visualization, some meditation techniques. But other parts are undiscovered, so beyond our awareness that they canât be accessed or even known.
The subconscious is like a wife⊠telling the husband what to do in a way that makes him think it was his idea.
You believe what ever serves your highest good.
Safe journey
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To assert something is fact does not establish it as a fact. It is a challenge for me to understand why it is so important for you to be absolute about something so ethereal and abstract, especially in light of the other sharing diametric views. Do you know why you do this?
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