Morning Marc. It’s been awhile since you started this thread and its looks like the majority is leaning towards calling Poker a game.
I myself posted a lot about what the pros had to say about this question.
What is your opinion?
The title mind game doesn’t count.
Game or sport ?
The definition of Sport is “an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment”. There is a fine line when considering whether or not something should be considered a game or sport. Poker falls right into that category. If anything, because there is so much Poker on television and an audience in live events, I think it leans toward being a sport.
Scratch
Hi Craig,
In my opinion I would say Poker is a sport. The game still requires skill and concentration and skill also involves strategy which is why I like to think of Poker as a sport.
I know a bit of luck is involved but the game is still more strategic then depending on luck. Just my opinion.
-Marc
Well said. Variance is in all sports. Football, because of the shape of the ball, which it isn’t a ball, is a clear demonstration of luck in action. In baseball an arbitrary divot in the field sends a ball way off its normal trajectory. In basketball when a player shoots the ball from beyond half court line and it scores is another example. Luck is constantly present in our lives.
Scratch
Wow , really? . I know your a huge New England sports fan and there was no way I thought you would declare your opinion as poker being a sport.
So what you are saying is poker is pretty much the the same thing as football, baseball, basketball , karate , etc and poker players are athletes?
Interesting… as long as you have an opinion after starting this thread is cool with me.
I’m going to go workout in my Dojo for a few hours before my next poker “game” 
hi tom,
i want to say that i do understand your point, and i agree on the part that there is never a full guarantee of winning long term, however if you do take the long term the odds of going broke with BRM and good play is just so small it is just not worth worrying about. yes of course you might get bad luck several years straight, but the chances that will happen are just so extremely small that it just won’t happen so someone. just compare it to someone having a normal job. there is also a “gamble” or “luck” part to it that even if you do extremely well you will lose money anyway: if you work for someone you might get fired by your boss and not get a new job in time, resulting in losing your home and everything you got. or perhaps you are your own boss, and performing great work making it a great copmpany. but suddenly the stuff you sell isn’t popular anymore resulting in the company going broke. as you see no matter what job you take there will always be a luck factor, but because poker is known for it’s luck factor and often associated with gambling, we just assume the luck is way more important here. and it is in short term, but in long term the luck factor is just like any other job. and if we are talking in really long terms like several years i would probably rather take my chances with poker then a regular job.
as for the improvement of luck in the long term in poker. i can’t give you the math of 20K hands because such a calculation would be impossible to make this year 
. but i am able to give you a small sample to prove the fact of decreasing luck: take the 60/40 chance as a base in this one: so obviously we have 40% chance of losing money with the best hand. but now take the odds of losing money with 3 60/40 hands. here we hold 8 possiblities. win/win/win = 60% of 60% of 60%. which is 21,6% chance of winning three. then we have 3 possibilities of winning 2 of them, leaving you with 1 win (win/win/lose. win/lose/win. and lose/win/win.) which is 60% of 60% of 40% which is 14,4% each. now the same for two losses which can also happen 3 times, which is 40% of 40% of 60% which is 9,6%. at last we can also have 3 losses once, which is 40% of 40% of 40% which is 6,4%. so if we purely take our winning chance only we hold 21,6 + (14,4 x 3) = 64,4% chance of winning money and 6,4 + (9,6 x 3) = 35,2% chance of losing money. so even on this incomplete calculation we are already holding 4,4% more chance of winning money with just only playing 3 hands instead of one. then we also have the fact that they aren’t all the same and we have 1 of both that contains winning or losing thrice instead of one so simply said this one is three times as important. so winning is (21,6 x 3) + (14,4 x 3) = 108. and losing is (6,4 x 3) + (9,6 x 3) = 48. since we have a total now of 156 we should divide both by 1,56 to bring them back to 100, which makes it able to see the actual %. 108 / 1,56 = ~69.23% and 48 / 1,56 = ~30,77%. which means that when using the real calculation we do have even more chance of winning, so instead of an improvement of 4,4% we do actually have an improvement of slightly more then 9,23% of making money with using just the exact same hand we used when just playing it once. and imagine that this is just for increasing 1 to 3 hands. now imagine we use 20000 hands like in my example, or maybe even several 100000’s of hands like many good players have. or even the 1000000’s (millions) like the big pro’s have. then you have such a big long term that almost no one can lose in that, well unless you tried to murder lady luck for some reason and now she’s coming after you 
. but serious, you can probably imagine you how big the factor should be in long term.
good luck, yiazmat.
i’m pretty sure he is referring to it as a mind sport. it’s the way i look at it too. i agree on the part that isn’t even close to the examples you mentioned. but imo sports and mind sports are very different things to begin with.
since chess is already considered a mind sport, i fully agree poker is a mind sport too, since it’s contains just as much thinking and if you do well mental exhaustion.
as i assume (correct me if i’m wrong) the defenition of a sport is a worldwide competition based activity which result in physical exhaustion. so logically thinking i assume the defenition of a mind sport is a worldwide competition based activity which result in mental exhaustion. which also applies on poker.
Who came up with the word “mindsport” or “mind sport “ it’s not in the dictionary and it’s not even a word ?
But game and sport is…0f course mind is …
I guess that why scholars , students, fans and players have been debating this question about poker for years.
I’m still staying with Poker is a game.
The debate goes on…
just have googled it to be sure. here is the proof.
it appears the defenition of a mind sport is even wider then i thought. and apparently next to the same thing as a mind game.
It is a given that poker is a game. “Sport” and “game” are not mutually exclusive however. Most competition falls under the category of “game”. Yes, there are exceptions, such as diving, swimming, etc., which were never known as games. But most games are a sport. Baseball, football, basketball, soccer, cricket, rugby, stick ball, etc. are all games. But they are also a sport or the sport of this or that.
The issue is whether or not poker is a sport, which again is generally described as “an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment”.
When playing the game of poker it is an activity involving some physical exertion and skill. An individual competes against another or others. And it is definitely entertaining, which can be seen on TV almost every day, and has multiple, amateur and professional, each year.
So it appears that poker is both a game and a sport.
Scratch
That’s Wikipedia, anyone can write there. That’s like the Urban dictionary.
Try looking it up in the Merriam - Webster Dictionary .
It is the only trusted dictionary in the world. A search of that word shows it doesn’t exist.
In order for any kind of competition to be classified a sport the participants have to be considered as and called athletes.
In order also for something to be classified or considered as a sport they have to be sanctioned by a governing body in sports.
Poker is not sanctioned by a governing amatuer or professional “ sports body or association “
The Oxford Dictionary first level definition: “1 - An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.”
The Merriman-Webster Dictionary first level definition: “a - to amuse oneself :frolic lambs sporting in the meadow.”
“b :to engage in a sport.”
The Colins English Dictionary first level definition: “1 - any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion.”
The Macmillan Dictionary first level definition: “1 - an activity in which players or teams compete against each other, usually an activity that involves physical effort.”
Finally, here is a link to the London Chess Conference, which makes a case why chess is a sport: http://londonchessconference.com/a-question-of-sport/
For those who do not want to read the entire article, here are the ten reasons why chess is a sport also:
Peace.
Scratch
The word “ mind sport “ does not exist in any of those dictionaries .
That is the issue being debated at this time Scratch.
The next issue is weather Poker is a game or sport which is the title of the thread.
Once we conclude the phrase “ mind sport “ does not exist at all we can get back to game or sport.
There is no such definition of the phrase “ mind sport “ that someone made up.
That was the OP’s Marc’s answer that poker is a “ mind sport “ along with other games.
There is no such word…,that is what’s in dispute right now.
I never heard of that word until I read it in this thread .
I found an article online that says Poker is recognized as a mind sport. Below is part of the article. I’ll also post a link to the full article:
" After exactly one year in existence the International Poker Federation received a huge fillip today when poker was officially accepted as a “mind sport” by the International Mind Sports Association.
Poker will now appear at the World Mind Sports Games in London in 2012 alongside chess and bridge.
Writer and poker player Anthony Holden, who is president of IFP, said the development was, ““a major milestone in our campaign to have poker accepted throughout the world as a game of strategic skill.
“Over time, this should help to free poker from much governmental interference and other such unnecessary restrictions all over the globe.”
The link:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/8988-poker-recognised-as-mind-sport
Like I said before it’s just my opinion that Poker is a mind sport. Perhaps we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
-Marc
Allow me to give an example of why I believe Poker is a mind sport.
Lets say your playing NL Hold’em and you have a flush draw on the turn. However then the board bricks out on the river and you completely miss your flush and all you have is a high card. This is where the luck factor comes into Poker. The cards you are dealt and the cards that are dealt to the board. I’m not denying at all that luck is a factor in Poker, There’s no question about it.
But now having missed a flush on the river and only having a high card you have options. This is where strategy comes into play. You have the option to check to showdown (Providing that option comes to you.) You can call a bet or raise a bet if your trying to bluff or you can simply get out of the hand and fold.
The point I’m trying to make is that yes luck is a factor in Poker but there is also strategy in Poker. You have to adjust your strategy depending on what cards your dealt and what cards hit the board.
In Poker you have to constantly be aware of your opponents ,be focused and concentrated while playing and make the correct decisions to be successful at Poker which is why I think strategy is a much bigger factor then luck which is why I consider Poker a mind sport.
-Marc
Outstanding!!! Never heard of the phrase “ mind sport “ but according to the article you posted poker player and President of ( IFP ) International Federation of Poker Players Anthony Holden said
“ a major milestone in our campaign to have Poker accepted throughout the world as a “ GAME “ ( not sport ) of strategic skill.
Case closed. Poker is a game of skill not a sport . Which we all knew anyway. I’m surprised the word luck wasn’t added also but you added it Marc and I agree also, strategy, skill and luck.
Mind Sport ? NO !!!
Mind Game ? Absolutely!!!
Anyone ready for a “ game “ of Hold Em ?
Too bad you didn’t find that article before today .
Oh well, fun thread.
[quote=“Craig_Anthony, post:57, topic:7150”]
“ a major milestone in our campaign to have Poker accepted throughout the world as a “ GAME “ ( not sport ) of strategic skill.
Brother Craig, the issue isn’t “game” or “sport.” Nobody has ever said “poker isn’t a game.” So let that go. It isn’t the issue.
You also wrote: “Case closed.” But I suggest opening your mind. It isn’t like Marc or I said “poker is a sport,” exclusively. A number of sources that I posted do say so; please review as there seems to be no question that linguistically poker is a sport.
But here is a case, a good case on games that so far have not made the Olympics: 5 Popular Sports Not Yet in the Olympics
Again, for the lazy at heart:
In general Craig, I don’t see you as a closed minded guy; you seem to be very open minded open. I am surprised you take such a close minded position. Of course poker is a game and sport.
Scratch
PS - If somebody wants to use the term “mind sport” instead of “mind game,” why make such a big deal about it; it is only word-smithing to make a point stand out.
Brother Scratch. Game or sport is the issue and it’s the title of the thread Marc started. A lot of people here researched, gave opinions , sighted articles and interviews and finally after over a hundred years the president of the IBF states that Poker is a game.
Your absolutely correct I am not a closed minded person. But when the head of a governing body for Poker makes a statement for the the record , I’m good with that. We can still have our own opinions weather Poker is a game or sport and I can absolutely say as a poker player that it is a game of strategy, skill, luck, patience and fun
Prayers to you as always for your health and good days my friend.
Got to stop texting from my phone. Still in the infectious disease unit for this stupid blood infection from my surgery called sepsis.
I only get an hour a day to use my phone. Stupid mind games… or is it a mind sport? Hahahahaha, be well everyone 
It is my opinion that the number of transactions or bets required to
over come extreme good or extreme bad luck is in the millions not in
the thousands as many believe, and even then it may well not over come
extreme examples. You can try all you want to explain the math behind
it but if someone is in the midst of a truly long term good or bad
luck run your math will fall on deaf ears.
When someone sees the AA hand cracked 17 out of 20 times and their AK
hand cracked 15 out of 16 times in a short period of time not to
mention hundreds of other similar beats that go against all odds, your
math is not going to convince them. I am talking straights cracked on
the river by a long shot flush, A high flushes cracked on the river by
a full house, and full houses cracked on the river by 4 of a kind
three times in one day. As much as people seem to think the
improbable is a rare occurrence, it does come to pass and for some
people it comes over and over and over for years and for some their
entire lives.
At this point at least on this site I have decided to fold all AA, and
all AK hands as soon as I get them as they are the absolute kiss of
death at least for me. Where as 6 4 suited seems to win quite often.
If your math is correct there are some people long over due to get
almost constant good suck outs for the next 5 years and others long
over due to get almost constant bad luck beats for the next 5 years or
so.
Even casinos that work of millions of bets each year will shun what
they consider to be very lucky players. Casinos have the benefit of
dealing with both the lucky and the unlucky and with their edge that
works well, as long as they don’t cater to the very lucky players.
I realize that anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as vastly
inferior to evidence such as mathematical formulas, but at times the
anecdotal evidence is so overwhelming as to be very convincing. But
remember mathematical formulas and computer simulations don’t involve
very lucky people or very unlucky people, and as such their findings
are very highly suspect for the discussion we are having.
If poker were truly mathematical there would be no need to play the
game at all, since only a few top mathematicians would compete
successfully. However it is the massive luck factor that makes poker
attractive to the hundreds of millions of people that play the game.
Since almost everyone really does like to think they are good players,
so most will readily accept your mathematical formula as gospel
without question. Some few of us prefer to believe our own eyes.