I’m loving this thread too.
I also agree that a few hands, even a single session, aren’t much of an indication of skill. You can’t seriously be suggesting that the guy who called a big bet with 83o did so because he was more skilled?
2 Likes
Just want to share my personal, honest opinion and not intentionally or necessarily “open a can of worms” so to speak. Let’s just say hypothetically we were to judge a player’s skill simply by just one hand. Looking at the first one posted - the K10spades vs. QJclubs vs. As10d one: IMO this would very clearly indicate that @love2eattacos is the most skilled player. This hand was played poorly by everyone but tacos. 3-betting over an UTG limp, and nice button raise, which received a caller, with K10s? Buddy with A10 sees an ace on the flop and his mind is made up for the rest of eternity. Nothing’s gonna beat that mighty 10 kicker. The check-raise is madness in that spot, and so is K10’s call. Then things just got really weird when they both hit their 2 pair on the turn. Tacos’ shove made perfect sense. The other two weren’t getting away from their hands with guns to their head . It seems they gave no thought as to what could be beating them. A10 wasn’t hoping for an out; he thought he had already won. At least, that’s what I think. 91% to 7% to 2%, and A10 (7%) gets it. You take a hand where he gets felted and it’s still clearly evident that tacos incorporated the most skill and reasoning into the way he played. He played the hand well, and the others didn’t. It’s actually a hand that perfectly demonstrates he would be the more skilled player. If based on only one hand. He lost his entire stack despite being the only one involved in the hand who played it well. That clearly demonstrates what he meant by saying “that’s poker”. It happened, but how likely is it that it will happen again and again? Not very.
Added: Sorry for perhaps sounding a little harsh or abrasive, and sorry if it sounds like I’m trying to know what I’m talking about, because I fully admit I don’t. I’m fully aware and acknowledge/recognize that I am a beginner in every sense of the word. I don’t mean to sound like I’m trying to be an expert; sorry if it comes across this way. Just sharing thoughts on this! 
5 Likes
Day 4 results:
Hands played: 507
Chips won: 4,363
Big blinds won: 218
BB/100: 43
Starting bankroll: 238,982
Ending bankroll: 243,345
Notes from today
All 10/20 today. There seem to be fewer players playing this level - most of the time that I was on there were only 2 or 3 tables going. Not sure why this is. I guess 25/50 and 50/100 are just where it’s at.
10/20 is low enough that players can take their free 2,500 daily chips and free reloads and come straight in for a standard buyin amount. This seems to have a noticeable effect on the play compared to 50/100. Specifically I saw a lot of people sitting with their entire current bankroll and getting all in preflop with all kinds of hands. Normally this would be a disaster but if you have an effectively infinite bankroll and zero downside to losing then I suppose there is no reason not to gamble.
When dealing with someone who is playing this strategy there is probably a lot of extra edge to be had by studying preflop odds vs whatever range you might assign to these players. For example should I be calling a preflop-all-in-every-other-time with A9? Likely it is quite profitable. However, I am taking the easy route and just making the easy calls with my premium hands and folding the rest. As a result I am sure my EV overall in these spots is lower than it could be but so is my variance.
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438420632
Of course, it doesn’t always work out. I have however definitely established that yelling “no ace” at the screen does NOT work.
Nice to play with @GrandyB today. I think I’ve only ever seen him here in the forums. We traded boat over boat hands. The second one was maybe 10 hands after the first. In the second one I had 88 (but failed to show it) for virtually the exact same hand GrandyB had in the first one. Turnabout is fair game as they say.
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438458167
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438463152
2 Likes
hi taco,
first of all, nice challenge you are doing, gl with it 
i’m a little late to the party but i still like to give you some minor advises on the hands you played.
i think you played the majority very well, there are just 2 hands i like to add something to:
the first hand where you got the nuts on the turn: most streets are played fine, the only part i really don’t get is the bluff on the flop, clearly, your table loves calling, so first of all, teh bluff here will not work most of the time, even just because of that, but the strangest part is that it’s about the worst flop to be Cbetting on, on these stakes, any pair is worth a call, you got QJ and the flop contains a K and a A, because they love calling, and there is even been checkraised (which got called as well) i would be sure there is at least one of em having an ace or a king. besides, even if the miracle that no one has an ace or king is true, you would already have the best hand with Q high, so the only thing that might be helping here is a mixture of a weak pocket pair and trash hands, but that’s just too unlikely. so i would always assume here there are way too many aces here. and betting is just throwing chips away. so just take the free card and hope to hit your 4 outer and if you do then it’s the time to get your chips in.
the last hand in which you mentioned you had pocket 8’s: in this hand i would have never ever put you on 88.
first of all, i saw in the other hands you are aware tehy love calling because of your large betsizing (which is good there). but you decided to check preflop, i’m not saying it’s bad to be setmining here, but i think a raise would have been better since you let many worse hands come along. the flop however screams for a raise, more then half of the entire deck exists out of scare cards, you got a great flop with only 1 card that can beat you (except higher pockets, but i assume they would have raised pre). you need to take it down here or make them pay for drawing to overcards. the turn you got lucky to get another undercard, you were right to bet here, but because of their love for the call button, i would have bet higher to extract more value, if you were scared for teh quads, i would have been way rather taking the careful approach on the later streets instead of the earlier ones, the flop and the turn are where you are most likely ahead and where you want to see some hands leave that might get their overcard.
hope this helps, good luck on your challenge.
yiazmat.
2 Likes
I’ve been following this thread intently since it started.
First of all the challenge itself is interesting but it’s also intriguing for me to watch the big dawgs play.
At the risk of sounding like a stalker I looked for taco every day after reading the results of the day posted here but he had either already logged off or was playing some table that I found intimidating (I’m bound and determined to stay above 1m chips now that I’ve finally attained it …after hovering around it for months ).
I’ve been surprised to see taco fold almost every pre-flop (after all how can someone win so many millions if they hardly ever play a hand) and then I found almost every hand taco did play, he won.
I almost always will call the pre-flop if no one raises (and then usually fold after the flop).
I reckon I’ve lost more chips doing that than I’ve won by hanging around for the flop.
Thanks for the free lessons taco!
3 Likes
Thank you for the feedback. What you say does make sense. Let me elaborate more on my thinking in this hand.
On the flop, one small note that I am technically not cbetting since there was a 3bet from another player that I called.
There is a big question to answer about play at these stakes - should we ever bluff given how often we think we are going to get called? I have been thinking about this a lot during this challenge, and right now my answer is that we still should have some bluffs but maybe less than we would if we were going for balance. Most players are not paying attention, but enough are that there is benefit to getting some folds, and enough benefit to table image from getting caught sometimes. Generally at these stakes I am only using my very best bluff candidates for a particular board. My general principle (not just at these stakes) is that if I am going to bet a board I should also think about what would be good bluffing hands - thinking about my whole range not just my specific hand.
So looking at this AK9 flop, the question I was asking was not whether this is a good board to bluff, but do I sometimes want to bet this board, and if so do I have one of my best bluff candidates? I am clearly going to want to bet here for value sometimes - I can have 99, AK, AQ, A9s. So I need some bluffs too. Usually I want to bluff good draws but it’s a disconnected rainbow flop so my best draws are going to be gutshot straight draws preferably with a backdoor flush draw. So here I have QJs and JTs (I’m not raising QTs preflop) as my bluffing hands because they are the only gutshots in my range. So given that I have QcJc with a club on the board then this is one of my bluffing hands. My plan is to fire again on the turn on any ten or club, and otherwise check back or fold to additional action.
In terms of what might fold, I would like my 3betting opponent to have some sort of pocket pair like QQ-TT or 88-66 that is going to be scared on this board. I’m in position and it has been checked around so there is a better than usual chance that there are no aces out there. You’re right that my Q-high can be the best hand against all the other junk, but I would still prefer them to fold it rather than have a chance to make a junky pair. I only need to get the bluff through 40% of the time here given my bet size for it to be outright profitable - I can lose most of the time and still make a profit. Maybe my bet size should be larger here.
On the other hand, maybe this is all Fancy Play Syndrome and I just simply shouldn’t be bluffing on this board at all 
Once I get checkraised on the flop it is an interesting spot because my opponent minraised instead of going larger, and another player called. Now I am 100% giving them credit for at least an A in their hand and the question is whether I have the right odds to call with my gutshot. I need 11:1 to call, and if I hit I have the nuts. I have to call 1,800 to win a 12k pot which is about 7:1 so I do not have direct odds. However, I have another 8k behind and both opponents cover me. If I think at least one of them is going to put the rest of their stack in regardless of the turn card (and I do) then I am getting 11:1 with implied odds. If I think there is a chance that they will sometimes both stack off then I am getting more than 11:1 and have what I need to call. It’s thin and I am going to lose most of the time but it’s still profitable in the long run to call - even if sometimes I get my ten on the turn and still lose to a rivered flush or boat.
This all makes sense too. Preflop I am in the big blind so I think it is close between a raise and a check. Assuming I raise and get callers (which we know that I always will) then on most flops I am going to miss my set and be playing a large pot out of position with 2nd or 3rd pair. So I am taking the lower variance option and going for the setmine. If I was on the button then I am raising 88.
Totally agreed that I should have raised the flop and gone bigger on the turn. Here I was slowplaying, where looking at it now I can see that it doesn’t really make sense to do that.
4 Likes
I think this is how the majority of people here play (not just at the low stakes but all levels). The first problem with it is that as you say usually you miss and have to fold, losing the chips you invested. The second problem is that everyone else is playing the same way and on average everyone is going to hit about the same number of hands - in which case where is your edge over them? On the other hand if you can zig when everyone else is zagging then you can generate an advantage.
You’re welcome, I’m just glad that something I’m doing is helping!
Don’t be afraid to move up in stakes - there are some adjustments as the competition gets gradually tougher but if you can beat one level then you are at least close to being able to beat the next. Maybe try allocating a couple of buyins and taking a shot at a level higher than you’re comfortable with? If you lose them then it’s no big deal and you can drop back down.
2 Likes
I know ur right and I do sometimes play 50/100 ring for a while but will usually switch to lower stakes rings or 1-10k SnGs once my happy “hour” starts kicking in and I wanna chillax : )
That said, I think I will start playing more higher stakes as my “stay above 1M dammit!” changed a few weeks ago when it became “stay above 1.25M”.
I think my new motto will be “stay above 1.25M and don’t be afraid to fold pre-flop” 
2 Likes
hi taco,
thanks for the detailed response .
first of all, i see you are LV 3 thinking here (what do i think my opponents think i’m holding). which is a good thing, but it requires your opponents to be at least LV 2 thinkers (what does my opponent hold) to make it work. i do not mean to sound rude, but i wouldn’t put them any higher then LV 1 (what do i hold), it’s just the way the vast majority of the low stake players is playing, i fully agree however all those hands are in your range, and according to grandyB, you are already playing tight (which is a very good thing), so if they are paying attention they have all teh reason to give you credit for your bet and they can fold. but that’s just the entire point, they aren’t paying attention, all they see is that they have hit their K or A and wanna go with it.
so i think i have to go with the fancy play syndrome on this one 
i agree on the part that we can still use a bluff in some parts.
the way i like to play is bluffing the fish that are playing fit or fold poker, and of course try to bet their missed range of hands. and leaving teh calling stations and maniacs with value hands only.
i agree there is some potential in those possibilities, but the problem is you are facing 3 opponents, i’m not sure if i would have tried a bluff against even only 1, but i can see the potential in that. however against 3, like in the example i gave, i mentioned it could work, but it would require a mixture with the other two to have complete air. which imo is just way too rare since K and A are teh most common hands to call or 3bet/call.
100% agreed on this one,
the only thing i had a different opinion on was the first bet, the check-raise call however is completely right imo because of the reasons you mentioned
makes sense, it’s indeed a close one, but i think i agree on your statement, especcialy because of your position.
good to hear i could help u on this one .
–
good luck and have fun on the rest of your challenge,
yiazmat.
2 Likes
I agree with tacos on the pre flop betting, but only if you are playing rings or are past the 1st 3 blinds in MTT. If you are playing rings and you are playing on a table over your head or stakes then this is a must. if you are playing with a buy in or stake level way under your bankroll of what u should be playing then why not see more flops. In a tourney u will get more folds each hand then calls, even early on in the 1st 3 blind levels. This is the chance to see the flop as many times as u can at the cheapest price to see the flop or an extra card after the flop most often. All u have to do is hit 1 or 2 hands if played well in the 1st 3 blind levels that u normally wouldnt play or pay to see the flop deep in the tournament and u will more than cover all your pre flop chips and more that u paid to see. Getting up early in a tourney is key while the blinds are low so u can get deeper in the tourney to have more chip leverage when the blinds start to eat players away more. All u need is 1 or 2 of those " i wish i wouldnt have folded hands, i woulda won " to get u up early on, not to mention that those so called bad cards that made a winning hand will most likely give u a higher profit when u do win them because u are probably going up against AK,AQ, KK,KQ,QQ or High pairs or trips, they wont expect u to catch your low trips,straight and flush draws etc. so they most likely will call your bet if u bet the right amount and u will rake in a nice pot on 1 or 2 of the "i shouldnt of folded that hand " ones that u payed to see at a discount. Rings tho u can get away with it but your profit margin will be less and usually your better off folding because those add up fast if u are playing high stakes.
1 Like
Haha, fair enough. I had been saving my comments on strategy and player skill but this is something I have been grappling with during this challenge - which types of play are too fancy for this level and should come out of my playbook. At high stakes that flop spot would be an auto-bluff for me so it is great to stop and think more about why and whether that move works here.
Thank you again for your feedback!
1 Like
I am a ring-focused player (and this challenge is ring-focused) so my comments here should definitely be seen through that lens. I honestly don’t know enough about tournament strategy to comment on whether limping a lot hoping to hit a big hand early in a tournament while you are still deep is good or not. Intuitively it feels off to me though to limp so much instead of being more aggressive.
Thank you for that post…it makes total sense!
hmmm…dumbing down one’s strategy sounds like a good problem to have to me.
It also gives me a clue as to why I almost always lose when I try high stakes (they ain’t just luckier than me)!
BTW, thank you to all the really good players here that share some of their strategies/knowledge…beware though, I’m taking notes!
Day 5 results:
Hands played: 181
Chips won: 4,668
Big blinds won: 93.4
BB/100: 51.6
Starting bankroll: 243,345
Ending bankroll: 248,013
Notes from today
Short session today because real life is also happening. I played all 25/50. I hadn’t played this level yet as part of this challenge so thought it’d be good to add. I’ll play some more 25/50 tomorrow to get a bigger sample size. So far it seems to play closer to 10/20 than to 50/100.
Some hands that I noted down today:
It’s no limit, you can raise more than the minimum lol. Maybe everyone here is not taking this as seriously as I am?
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438645279
I have 55. Should I call a donk jam for 160BB when one of the gutshot draw cards comes on the turn?
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438652182
This hand happened toward the end of the day. Got all in preflop and lost with QQ vs 98s vs J9o. I have 73% equity in a 3 way pot so I am miles ahead when the chips go in, but that’s poker.
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438713889
I am not just including this as a bad beat story, but also to bring up a strategy question. Given how light players are prepared to call all in preflop, would a viable (if boring) strategy be to wait for say JJ+/AK and then shove every time?
1 Like
I don’t think it would be all that viable.
First, you would only be playing 1 hand every 5 orbits or so at a full 9 seat table. Most people might not look past their cards, but I think they would notice you only play big pairs and AK.
Second, you would often get too many callers. Do you really want to have 3 or 4 people call your JJ? Sure, those who notice you are only playing premium holdings would be less likely to call, but that still leaves enough people to ruin your day.
If enough people see what you’re doing, you would get few, if any, callers. Basically, you would go from too many calls to not enough.
It might technically be viable, but I think it would be far from optimal.
1 Like
If we are all in preflop then yes I do. JJ is going to be a favorite against any specific hand except QQ+. Against 3 other people that might mean 30 or 35% equity but that is still doing great in a 4 way pot where I am guaranteed to get to show down my hand.
I am only semi-serious with the suggestion of playing these hands like this. But I do see some people (even at high stakes) who will just jam preflop with all their premium pairs. I suppose if players call these jams too much it can still be profitable, even if you play the rest of your hands in a more normal manner.
1 Like
can’t add much more on these hands then that imo you played em all well
also, funny one the first hand 
. would almost think it’s a limit table indeed 
as for the second one with the laydown, i think you did well on this one too. it’s a close one since he might have done it with some strange ace, but still, i would put him on the 4 sooner.
as for teh raise sizing on the flop, i can imagine you were trying to lure out a shove of the better and hoping the other guy would come along, making the shove size high enough to be able to reraise again. i think it’s fine, but i’m unsure if a bigger raise might have been fine (maybe better) as well, so it would make several Ax hands call. but like i said, i’m not sure enough about which option would be best to give you proper advise on that one, just mentioning it as an option.
third one obviously played as well as possible.
Looking back I am thinking that he probably has a 4 here 80% of the time or more, with the rest being random 2 pairs like say A3. Probably very few if any bluffs - I don’t think many people other than maniacs bluff big on a board with 4 to a straight. If he bet small I might have to call but given the large bet size I am ok with folding.
Agreed on the flop sizing. Definitely room to go bigger. There has to be a threshold somewhere where the bet size gets too big for people to call but it seems to be much larger than I would have expected.
1 Like
Day 6 results:
Hands played: 368
Chips won: 27,900
Big blinds won: 558
BB/100: 151.6
Starting bankroll: 248,013
Ending bankroll: 275,913
Notes from today
25/50 again today.
The large player pool still means most players are unfamiliar to me. I’m finding after almost a week at this level I typically have notes on 1-2 players when I join a new table.
I am however getting much more comfortable with my general read on the way that most players are playing. I’m betting bigger for value and getting into more all in situations which is going to mean hopefully a bigger win rate though with more variance - I’m going to lose more big pots than I normally would but also win more big pots.
In terms of variance, I actually felt like I ran kind of badly today while I was playing, though that didn’t show up in the results.
Here I raise KK to 12BB preflop and get a bunch of callers. All in by the turn and villain hits their flush on the river. I wonder whether I should have just jammed it on the flop since I am almost giving them correct odds to chase on the turn? Coming back to something I mentioned yesterday - should I just jam it preflop and expect a caller or two? Certainly it seems I can raise even bigger and still get called.
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438914707
Get all in with a set vs 2 pair vs top pair no kicker on the flop. No idea what the player with J4 is thinking. I have 86% equity when the chips go in which means you know what is coming on the river 
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438920740
Clearly it wasn’t all bad beat stories today. Here I skillfully flop a full house in the big blind . My question is what is the best way to extract the most value given the large number of players in the hand and the large number of possible draws out there that I have drawing dead? Do I go for the slowplay and let people try to complete their draw, or do I try to get some value early?
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/438936617
You sure don’t sound like a beginner to me! I learned a lot from your comments and analysis. Thanks. I must say this thread is the first time I have heard the word “felt.” As in felted. How far can this verb be conjugated? I assume it means “lost” in a particular way?