Preflop Limping is Bad

[Sassy_Sarah]

AKFolds,
I do play up to and including 20/40k. ( well flash tables, lolol )
While yes there are stonger opponents, what I’ve noticed making a difference too is what % of thier Broll they sat with, and thier relative stack size on table.

As far as what Fozzy said, it applies both to say 500/1k and 50/100k.
I look @ limping differently than most. There is a constant struggle
between… bet’n/rep’n strength and notbet’n/rep’n weakness.

There are players who just say… I’m willing to pay “this much” to see the flop. It doesn’t matter what they have. If you can’t detect when they hit the flop, you’re stepping to the abyss.

You wonder about hands like 55, 88, QJs, 9Ts. I really don’t think they play any differently that normal, just because you’re playing 20/40k not 2/4k. The secret really to moving up is telling your brain to ignore all those zeros, and think in terms of BBs.

@AKFolds

but that is difficult to do when facing opponents who consistently limp in with a wide range.

exactly, altho these players have the capacity to limp AA-23o, just how often do they do so … is the 64k question. You are correct 100%, there is no one right answer.

Lets say you do have 10J spades, with 2 limpers before, 1 after, and the BB, dead in the middle between them. All 5 hands could have just about anything. Lets say the flop comes 9s Ks 9d… your only protection against a boat or quads is the inside SF draw. You dont have the nut flush/str8 draw, and any random 9 has trips already.

You arent 1st/act or last/act, so you’re totally OOP. Does it really matter if its 1/2k or 20/40k ?? not really because if you have 5% of your bankroll on the table exposed, either way its the same basic risk.

My limp’n range is AA-23o, same as my betting range. If I size my bets properly, good luck putt’n me on a starting range.

The bottom line is : if you limp preflop, you can’t control facing a multi-way pot… so your hand strength on the flop and your reads as the flop/turn/river plays out, better be spot on… any bluffs here must work or usually you get hosed.
Sassy

[1Warlock]

@AKFolds - If your opponents are going to put money in the pot with garbage ranges, let them. For the most part, they will be playing their own 2 cards, not reading the board correctly and not taking into account how many players are in the pot. Multiway, you have to understand relative hand strength rather than absolute hand strength. Top pair 3rd kicker 4 ways is a check on the flop almost always. Do not blast away with it and force your opponents into ranges that you don’t do well against. QJs on Q83 rainbow is great vs 8x, 3x, 99, T9, J9, KJ, Q9 … It isn’t doing so well against AQ, KQ, Q8, 88, 33 …

Multiway, you aren’t going to price out draws unless you bet huge and since you don’t want to bet huge with marginal hands, just strengthen your checking range. In multiway spots, bet small/check with your marginal 1 pair hands, play draws more passively and listen to what your opponents bet sizes are telling you. Play your big pots in position and don’t be afraid to dump marginal hands early when you know you can’t continue most turns and rivers. Play hands that can make straights, sets and nut flushes. 1 pair hands you are mostly going to pot control and be willing to fold if facing action that suggests 1 pair isn’t good (even overpairs).

Plenty of material online about beating these games. Don’t look to the GTO wizards for advice on how to beat bad players. Look to people teaching exploitative play vs the average 1/2 live player.

ADDED: This is an easy way to understand it - your equity multiway rarely justifies large bets. Therefore your bet sizes will decrease on average. A large bet heads up on the flop can be 66-75% of pot. 4 ways, a large bet is going to be 25-33% of pot. Strengthen your checking range, allow them to continue with worse hands and size up the nutted hands on turn and river.

[Comicguy]

@AKFolds

the solution, as you elude to, depends largely on making specific reads on the players who have already acted and also on those who have yet to act, but that is difficult to do when facing opponents who consistently limp in with a wide range.

Get the thought of ranges out of your head when playing most people here or at low stakes live. They wouldn’t know a range from a toaster oven. Its all about value when dealing with these types of players. Get paid on your big hands and don’t pay people off because you can’t let go of a pair. It isn’t exciting (or even interesting) but that’s the game. When you get on a table with someone more advanced than that, you’ll know pretty quickly. Until then, value, value, value.