X or bet river

lol, @ dayman… ( ma’am… )

thanks for the explanation, and if those are non flash tables,
then thats a look @ how the other 1/2 live, as Goat said.

Sassy

1 Like

I understand … we are not disputing that here whom is “better” makes no difference to my point of but in the context of whom to take as Gospel that is my point

And the DANGER is that when a player see My answer which is totally correct … and compares to Yours which is just flat Wrong … They will look at our “rank” and determine that Your Wrong advice is Gospel … You get my drift

Again that is not the point here … Yes @love2eattacos is a great player and yes @Goatsoup is a great player lol and yes @Sassy_Sarah is a great/good player lol

I will not say that @love2eattacos is superior to me ... maybe ring/cash ok lol ( I have won prob 200 mill @MTT ova the last year and lost 198 playing ring games that's the truth lol ... I have not figured out "variance yet" lol ... but overall ... I don't want to toot my own horn but I guess I must here b/c u called out my bs ... Who Won the Winter Games Finals (only event entered) on site 2 months last year and DOMINATED the Winter Games this Year going so far as to Challenge to Rest of the World defeat me and backed it up  ... oh and the RTC ( where @Tiggy whom could have picked anyone in the World to team up with and she picked me and w/ @ClintEastwood we became The Lady and the Tramps) and those 2 nut jobs said they wanted me to play in Level A against the "big boys" and as I believe YOU @Sassy_Sarah witnessed w/a bank of 1047 and "ranked" @1.3 Millionth defeated a final table where the Avg "rank" of the other 8 players was 124 and the Avg Bank was 128 Million ... then we have the RSOP Event VII last year which is where I became King (lol)

In this context I am !00% correct with my call … and as I can see now both @love2eattacos and @dayman can not understand basic poker on the “ground” level and they are both 100% wrong … Simply said “What do you have to gain?” a "might get a call with worse w/JTo yes u have 2 pair but the “V” has not backed down until the end when it looks like a Total set up … U bet ur little 1/4 pot and they run u ova … remember “V” Raised Flop and Turn … Simple answer check it and go on PeriodO

I understand Sassy you are trying to appease the “Gods” and worship their every word but in no way am I wrong period … End of this story

Take Care The Goat

There is a Southern saying that I think applies here: “Just because you eat your soup louder, doesn’t mean it tastes any better.”

@Goatsoup - you are so far off base here, on every level, that its not worth addressing in detail. Suffice it to say that both your assertions and the way you asserted them are dreadful.

I assume the OP was making a genuine inquiry about how to play a hand at 10NL. Unfortunately the thread went the way of so many on poker forums elsewhere. Most poker forums are cesspools with people shouting at each other rather than providing constructive feedback and advice. This site’s forum has largely been free of that kind of thing but there are exceptions from time to time.

The hand was not played well by either player. 10NL is an obscenely raked game and the string of small bets only insured that the house was the ultimate winner, regardless who won the actual hand. The rake structure disincentivizes small bets and calls and rewards larger bets and raises. You do not want to get to showdown with a ton of small pots in these games or you are bleeding money to rake. These are the types of hands that explain why 90%+ of micro stakes players cannot stay ahead of rake.

If the thread gets back on track, I’d be happy to go through the math and the hand in detail. Just looking at the river - as played H’s hand is wildly under-repped. I’m fine with a bet and a fold to a raise. The K is mostly a blank and I wouldn’t be at all afraid of it in H’s shoes once checked to. You are still going to be called by all Jx and you are beating all of them other than JK, which doesn’t check the river. If you aren’t going for thin(ish) value, you cannot beat these games by enough to be worth playing them. This wouldn’t even be that thin a value bet IMO.

As a prophylactic to the inevitable attack on my preferred play, I have over 65,000 hands of 100NL (lowest stakes I play) this calendar year alone and my winrate is 11.63bb/100. I’m a winning player at 200NL and 500NL as well. Compared to many others, I’m a total donkey but I think I’m qualified to toss my 2-cents in about this hand.

5 Likes

Goat, people just are not x/r flop, down bet turn and x/r bluff rivers. It doesn’t happen. Furthermore, v is highly unlikely to x river with hands we lose to after getting called on flop x/r and turn bet, H will x back a lot here and V loses value. H bet river small V has some J’s that will call, mostly J9 as I don’t think he’s x/r flop with QJ often, but IT IS 10nl. It’s okay to bet fold thin value on the river and it’s okay to get called by a straight.

3 Likes

Poker is a simple game … With very complicated strategies

Guess I will go back to my corner now and scratch my head

You don’t have to back into a corner, there’s just no reason to be quite so aggressive and arguably a little nasty with your comments.

5 Likes

I’m good and I am sorry if my comments came off as being aggresssive and yes a little nasty my bad … I will Agree to disagree on this subject @1Warlock @dayman @love2eattacos

The Goat

3 Likes

:100: true and accurate. Global rakes 5% at 10nl and caps out at SC .75 in HU pots. That is, you have to reach 150 bb’s in the pot before playing rake free. In comparison, at 200nl you pay the same 5% that caps at SC 1 or 7.5 bb’s. The game is 20 times bigger but pays 1/20th the rake. In MW pots at 10nl it’s 5% up to SC 1 for 3-4 players and 5% up to SC1.5 for 5+ players. That’s a whopping 300 bb’s that need to go in before playing rake free.

To provide a little justification for 10nl though, it is a good way to dip your toes into on-line cash games at a very manageable price point in order to familiarize yourself with the on-line community and just obtain a general idea of how a particular site works. You can drop 20 buy ins and it’s just a couple hundred dollars but I would argue the experience you’d gain would be invaluable if on-line were an avenue one wished to pursue.

As far as this HH goes, not many opportunities does the bb get to raise over a sb complete. 4.4x seems reasonable here with JT. I don’t think keeping the pot small in this scenario is all that of an egregious error. While agree playing small pots as a habit will kill a 10nl winrate I think there is some merit to squeaking out some value from weaker hands and bluffs. You’re paying rake up to 150 bb’s and while piling it in here in this environment with top two isn’t horrible, I’m okay with not wanting to gii for 240 bb pot in a SRP in in order to save .45 in rake when you’ll be behind a decent amount of time V chooses to go with it and you’ll blow him off his bluffs. That being said I think river is a very comfortable bet for H.

Cheers! :slight_smile:

P.S. I’m working and I didn’t proofread a single line of this text.

4 Likes

@dayman - Thanks for the deeper dive into the rake structure. I’ve never played on Global so was using a generalized picture of micro stake games. The structure you pointed out isn’t as horrible for smaller pots as some other sites but the cap is insane. Agreed that not blowing up pots needlessly is prudent.

In this hand, I can’t understand SB not opening it up with 77 and trying to take the 1.5bb without a flop. That’s a great score with zero rake. It would also set up easily getting stacks in on the river when she does make her set. I do like H’s preflop raise, including the size. On the flop, I do not like H’s bet size on this texture. This texture calls for a large bet but infrequently, not a small bet with range. The small bet lead to a small raise and so on. If H got some more value on the flop and turn, then checking the river back would be ok. He didn’t get enough value before the river and therefore I think a bet is warranted. As I mentioned before, his hand is very under represented here.

Also agreed that NL10 can be a wonderful place to learn and grow as a player. You must be able to beat these stakes if you have any desire to move up. Its a good place to work on the fundamentals - and you will beat these games easily with just a basic sound strategy. As with many of the games here, its not rocket science. You can net 10bb/100 easily just by being aware of value spots and move on up.

@Goatsoup - its all good. We can (and should) disagree about strategies and lines in these Forums. That’s how we all get better. Part of that is keeping an open mind though. I understand the impulse to defend ones opinions but I also know that having those opinions challenged is healthy. We either confirm our initial thoughts or we learn something we didn’t know. Its a win either way. I subject myself to scrutiny all the time and its sometimes not comfortable. It is however always productive.

Your line on the river does not have a negative expectation so it can’t be considered “wrong” out of hand. I would just ask you to consider that there may be ways of extracting more value overall by using a different approach. Sometimes that approach results in value-owning ourselves. That’s totally fine. If you execute more thin value bets (in the proper spots), your overall winrate will increase, despite betting into better hands on occasion. It also allows you to include some % of bluffs to your range so you can’t be exploited every time you make a river bet. We should always try to be aware of potentially higher EV lines, even if we don’t always pull the trigger on them in game.

4 Likes