Stop playing the SnG 3-Max Turbo games. You’re too short-stacked throughout those “tournaments” to really learn anything - preflop jamming is pretty much the only correct play, you’ll be facing a lot of 60-40 spots when the chips hit the felt, and you don’t seem to handle it well the 40% of the time that the underdog wins.
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For the examples from 3-Max that I posted above, I don’t think it’s accurate to say I was “playing” these games.
Rather, I experimentally took an approach with opening hands. They were strong hands. I legitimately raised them. I had a legitimate good enough hand to all-in with. And yet, both times, V calls with a much inferior hand and gets lucky.
Sassy does it to me, she aggresses with a weaker hand than I call with, she still gets lucky and wins it. Perhaps I should only be playing my weak hands, but I can’t seem to make them work for me. It’s as though probability works just fine when it’s odds against me.
Perhaps it would be better to not play poker at all.
In a word, no.
The game hinges on probabilities. How the board runs out is a single sample of the full universe of how those probabilities are recognized. If you get all the chips in preflop, but then focus on what the probabilities are after the turn, you’re focusing on the wrong thing. If you get the chips in on the turn, while focusing on how good your hand was preflop, you’re still focusing on the wrong thing.
If you want to improve your poker abilities - not to mention your peace of mind - focus on the things you can control, when you can control them. Are you making the proper decisions? Are you giving players the right/wrong odds on a call? When you face a bet, are you calling with the correct odds?
Bad players will come and go. Some will have brief upswings; others will have upswings that seem to last forever. Ultimately, though, they’ll go broke. Make good decisions, and you’ll be the one gathering their chips.
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I feel like you’re suggesting that when I lose hands I should console myself with the knowledge that I would have won in a lot of alternate universes.
I mean, OK, but the chips only come when you win in this universe. And winning chips is the point of the game.
On those 3 things… #1 the fact is u are venting here #2 fact is you are looking for advice ( this time on LAG players) #3 who cares about LAG players and the math, for the most part LAG play doesnt work except maybe against you by what your describing…play the player and not the math always and always its about the cards with u. there is much more to poker then that that u need to learn which u never will cause ur too negative and dont take great players advice on so many things so they just gave up on u…dayman was right when he said never play rings and deff dont ever play live. and yes as u stated maybe u shouldnt play poker, then u mention that u shoulda won but Sassy got lucky lol. not to be rude but u havnt even barely scratched the surface of moving away from beginner status but its a shame you wont listen to some great players on here that were willing to help u out so many times.i know ive tried a lot… its all about luck, cards, and math for you and u dont even know that other aspects of the game exist to learn them ( appropriate betting strategies for example ) I see why no one responds to u any more, especially successful players here. black jack seems like a better option if u say u shouldnt play poker anymore. While playing black jack you can have the biggest NEGATIVE attitude all u want and still win a lot with your math, odds, and cards AND get the attention u need and want… not here, best of luck and hope some top players will give u the time of day to give u advice that u think u dont need or dont want to implement in your play, or at least try to. Its the same poor me i shoulda won over and over. CHEERS
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so Sassy get “lucky” and you are complaining, yet other day saw you get it all in preflop with A8 vs AK . you hit a a 8 and won hand. I bet in world you live in that was fine and don’t find it “ridiculous” that you hit a 3 outer against a dominate hand. didn’t see the player had AK complaining. least not in chat or come on forum to post billion hands they seem “ridiculous”.
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OK, you are in the cutoff seat here, you raise to steal the button and hopefully knock out the blinds too. But the SB shoves a small stack of 1040, and the limper calls. Now you have to put another 700 into a pot of 2140, so odds of 3:1. Both opponents in the hand are short stacked and if you lose the hand you will still have 2000 chips or 20 Bib Blinds. It is absolutely a call, with the bonus that if you win the hand, you will eliminate two opponents and have a nice sized stack yourself to threaten the table. If you lose the hand, better luck next time.
The only hands that really have you in trouble are AA, KK, QQ, and AK and given the situation there are many hands that either player may hold that they would play here for the chance to double or treble up. The limper is very unlikely to have anything better than a small pair, and in fact has not even that.
Now if the SB had you outstacked, you might have an argument for folding. I will sometimes fold in a situation like that early in a tournament, because I believe that there are safer ways for me to build a large stack than putting all my chips on the line in a situation that is unlikely to be better than 50/50 by calling an all-in bet. If you are first into the pot, then AQ is a very strong hand, especially on a final table where anyone who calls a raise is liable to cripple themselves or go down in the prize money if they call and lose the hand
Here is the very last hand I played tonight. This hand cost me over 5 1/4 million chips in prize money. It was a travesty, but travesties happen.
Opponent raised big with a trash hand, I re-raised him all in, he called with a totally dominated hand and made 2 pairs on the run out and won 11 million chips in prize money.
During the game a well-known player was whining in the chat box about shoving AKo, being called by TT, and losing the hand. We had to point out to him that he was a 57/43 underdog on the hand due to the effect of the TT partially blocking his straight and flush possibilities.
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That’s not a bad point, 'dude. I did mention in a few cases where I won as underdog that it was finally my turn, or that the ridiculousness finally was in my favor. I acknowledge that point you’re pointing out to me by saying such things.
And it’s true. Sometimes I do win from behind.
That’s not my point, though. My point is that while I will sometimes do it, I see it working for other people a lot more frequently. Maybe I’m wrong about that. But the perception at least is that the rules of probability are not predicting results accurately. Probability is inverted, or at leas selectively inverted.
I may win according to probability, but (seemingly) not on the biggest or most important pots.
Or else, I lose as an underdog about as frequently as expected, but I lose to an underdog way more often than should expected.
If I’m 60-80% to win, and lose 4-5 such hands in a row, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Clusters happen in stochastic chaos. That’s the nature of randomness. But when these clusters persist into trends, and when streaks of probability inversion clusters seem to repeat periodically, then it sure seems like something is wrong. Imagine pouring out the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle out of their box on to a table, and having them all land perfectly to make the picture. That just should not happen! Well, losing with KK in five consecutive appearances of KK in your hole, in one evening is kinda like that. It’s obviously way more possible than a jigsaw puzzle randomly self-assembling, but it feels pretty wrong.
It could just be some cognitive bias problem with my perception, though.
@MekonKing, I wish I could hug you through the internet. Thanks for posting a substantive response to this thread, that was very refreshing, insightful, and useful. I’m so happy right now. Please, let’s see more like that.
Pugg, no one is attacking you on anything. It is quite the opposite. Many players including myself have tried to help you in many ways so many times. You even thanked me several times for doing that and then you say the opposite about helping out, then put words in my and others mouths and let your emotions attack me and others. Ive tried to get negativity out of your game many times too so you dont have to turn this into a therapy session on a poker site. Take any ones advice or dont, its that simple but you are so complicated but yet so easy to read on the tables…doesnt make sense lol…and you are very repetitive on your posts/threads but you can say whatever you want here and many of us are actually playing much more on the tables than in forums so it really doesnt matter or bother anyone. No need to turn topics into arguments or get personal or bring emotions and more negativity here. Its just that most players want to hear positive things more than negative. SPG actually was spot on when he mentioned things to you in the NH thread, basically the same way i feel about it and truly believe how most others feel IMO. A wrong approach is only your opinion and with you there are very few approaches available to use. An approach used to you is most often used much different to most others as far as effectiveness. Thats how unique you are. No need to comment back as i will be departing this thread now because it has become too off topic. I have also given many examples here of how i handle LAG players so nothing really more i can add at this point. Cheers
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Ski, you can be right, and still be off-topic and unwelcome. You can be well intentioned, but have the wrong approach and not be appreciated. That’s all.
When I’ve been looking for advice, and you gave me a good answer to my question, I’ve been appreciative, absolutely. Thanks again for your help that I’ve asked for.
Hopefully we’ll meet up again soon in some other thread and have a more productive and enjoyable exchange. Or at the tables, and whoever out plays the other will get the chips.
@puggywug - there are very few good LAG players out there. Absolutely none of them play SnG’s for profit because they can never run well enough for long enough. When they start making hands in short structured games, there isn’t a dang thing you can do about it. Play your hands and pick your spots and if variance is against you, that’s just all there is to it.
I like you man. I just wish you could enjoy the game for the game’s sake. These are play-chips, not money. Don’t get all twisted over them please.
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Thanks, @Comicguy.
Yeah, I’m trying. I’m fighting my own brain on this. The aggressive nature of poker wants to activate my emotions, and when I run bad for a few games in a row it gets to me still. I took a step back and reset myself yesterday, but we’ll see how long it lasts. I know it’s just play chips, but if I don’t pretend they’re real, I don’t think I can play well. I just want to find balance and consistency. I can tolerate losing now and then, obviously one has to, but I want to stop being so streaky.
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I think the problem is that you may not be looking at the whole picture. Let’s suppose you have a medium stack and are in early position and wake up with AK. You put in a standard raise, and everyone folds to me with a large stack in the small blind looking at 5 8 suited.
I think to myself, OK it looks like Puggywug has AK or AQ again, so I am going to reraise to make him think I have a premium pair and steal the pot on the flop if it looks good for me, because if he misses the flop, he is going to wimp out.
Flop comes A 8 5 rainbow. I check back to Puggywug, and he puts in a flop sized bet. I reraise him all in, and he calls. Badonk. Flop comes AKQ, I am going to throw away the hand. However the odds are 2:1 in favor of him NOT flopping a pair.
A lot of these hands are probably variations on this type of hand where it all goes wrong for the SB and he become pot committed, then just lucks out.
Another factor you will see on RP is that the scenario is the same, and you make your raise and three more players flat call your raise. Now there is an enhanced probability that someone will be hit hard by the flop or they have a small stack and hit a flush or straight draw, and just decided to go balls to the wall with it and hope for the best. Sometimes they will win and sometimes not, but the more often you get into this scenario, the more often you will lose.
However, in these situations, you must take into account stack sizes. You cannot be knocked out by a smaller stack, but getting into an all-in situation with AQ versus a small pocket pair if you can avoid it, may lead to your own destruction. That is why–sometimes-if I raise from early position with AK or AQ and someone shoves at me with more than half my stack, I will fold, because it is likely that they either have a lower pocket pair, or a top pocket pair that dominates me and I don’t want to get into a race when I am only 43% to win. There are easier ways to win chips., like relentless aggression.
On the other hand, if you know from previous experience that the player in question is shoving preflop with hands like AJ and AT, that you dominate, that might make you more likely to call the 3-bet.
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Another great response, @MekonKing. Thank you very much.
Based on the above, can you suggest a better approach to take? Or is it that the strategy is sound, but that these types of situations will happen from time to time, and it’s just the downside of an otherwise solid fundamental strategy that I shouldn’t mess with?
Someone’s gotta win hand #1, if its not you
it might be that LAG/TAG player @ the table.
SnG or MTT, anyone that 2-3x up early on, can instantly turn into a LAG player. We have all heard, after someone wins a hand the next hand, ““Well, he’s putt’n those chips to good use”” as they put in a raise.
One mindset is , I have more than my starting stack , so till I lose those I can open up my game. They start opening up/flatcall’n/raising with mediocre hands. They can afford to see xtra flops or xtra streets, or even nuicance raises preflop. Its also a ““Bull in a china shop”” approach, in SnG/MTTs. What happens is a player like this causes Kaos on the table in terms of stack sizes. Its easier to attack other ppl, when most of the stacks are unequal, so by investing some chips in getting others unequal, you help yourself down the road.
Even that LAG person who dink raises preflop without a chiplead. They are potbuilding, but your cards have to hit/hold up to take adv of these people. If done correctly, those players will win bigger pots, they will play more pots, and scrape more blinds.
We all know ““If you’re not folding winners, you’re playing too many hands””, well… those ppl can/will play too many hands, therefore will catch a few xtra hands. Usually those xtra hands are crushers, to normal top hands.
The most devius LAG player is the one that does 2-3x up early, then continually makes is more for everyone to see flops. Not only are pots bigger when won, but effectively they have artificially increased the blinds. Therefore if everyone else has lets say 75bb, and they raise to 3bb almost every hand, basically everyone else are playing as if they only have 25bb.
Taken to its extreme, yet not as dangerous, is the LAG player that again hits 2-3x up very early, then starts shove’n it… They can be wrong twice , against different ppl, before it hurts them. Its up to those with good cards, to call/win or feed the beast.
Look, playing against AG players is playing against AG players. Donks will feed them, while sharks will eat them. I’m sure there’s many great ways to beat an AG player. The point here is : Its a playstyle, and its overcomeable.
Its only repeatable if someone is skill’d in that playstyle.
Puggy, sounds like not only are you not skill’d @ AGplay, also frustrated with it.
Good AG players make it look effortless, those who do it cause they can, are just a pain in the butt… but much easier to deal with.
Sassy
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It’s amazing how much I’ve managed to win despite lacking skill, then.
Based on what you and Mekon are saying, it sounds like I should look at my post-flop game and work on improving it more.
There is no postflop, without preflop 1st … ( so both )
We all should be striving to improve our game, all the time.
( and learning other ppl’s game )
Sassy
Well, you hafta routinely play those hand for it to work…which means lot of the time it will not work, at which point it becomes necessary to continue to assert you have a good hand, which will work some of the time…it is a strategy …and most of the players who adopt a loose/aggressive strategy do not whine…
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I don’t even see this as LAG. The SB and BB limped in. If I can limp 73, I often will, as they are connected. Easy to get away from the hand if the flop looks bad, so I often play hands like that. I really don’t see why every hand has to be shove or fold. I don’t know how many times I’ve watched my all in with AA beat by 4 cards to a straight or flush on the board. I try not to spend too much preflop. The hard part, for me, is getting other players to bet for me, since a minimum bet from me often folds the table. I learned that skill playing rings. 
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