This one haunts me

do i make this call? my spidey sense put him on 9T, but what does the math say? of course i’m coming in with 11:1 pot odds, but after seeing no odds after the flop, is there any math, or just your gut feeling?

I’m 5d 4h in the SB
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/510375278

just arrived at this table. i didn’t have notes or any read on villain.

i can’t help it. i want those 15 seconds back. i want to make villain’s bluffing butt pay to see my puny little straight. Ahhhhhhhhhh

Should probably just fold it preflop but you’re getting great pot odds to call and people here just don’t raise to punish weak limps so whatever.

On the flop I like your check with the small end of the straight - from the small blind you should be looking to check-raise here.

When the button 4x pot jams you have to decide what he’s doing that with. I think he can plausibly have:

  1. A bigger straight (T9 or 95s are certainly both in a weak limping range) or the same straight as you
  2. A set (88-66)
  3. 2 pair (87, 86, 76)
  4. Top pair good kicker (A8 or K8)
  5. A weirdly played overpair (for example I have seen people here take a line like this with AA)
  6. Some sort of draw (e.g. any hand with a 9 such as Ah9h)
  7. Some kind of air bluff

Honestly nothing really makes sense so it’s not worth over-analyzing. You have the 3rd nuts, he can plausibly have a bunch of weaker hands that he’s doing this with. Just call.

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“The Math” has no idea what two cards your villain has in his hole cards. Those don’t change from preflop to the river. They are what they are.

Whether he’s bluffing or not, you don’t know. To find out, you’d have to call. But calling with the idiot end of the straight, well, there’s a reason it’s called the idiot end of the straight.

What you need to read here is not the math, it’s the player’s actions. You know with 100% certainty that you’ve got a straight, 4-8. You’ve hit your draw. The only way your hand can improve is if you run out 9T, for a higher straight – but that would actually nullify your hole cards and give the board a community straight, which would mean everyone chops unless someone’s holding a J…

If this player did hit a straight, they screwed up big time by shoving it, driving everyone out of the hand and taking a relatively puny pot compared to what they could have had. On the other end of it, flopped straights can and do get beat sometimes by the river, by flopped sets improving to full houses, mostly. It’s rare, but it can happen.

Sometimes a player will bluff-shove the nuts – that is, having hit the best possible hand on the flop, they’ll shove, hoping that someone will think they’re bluffing, call, and get taken for the biggest possible pot. It works sometimes, but often like it did in this case it ends up closing the hand with no additional chips going in, so they lose value on their great hand, and it’s a bad result.

Thus, I think you played this hand well, aside from limping in the first place. If they did get away with shoving on an air bluff, or on top pair, or a pair of overcards that they felt deserved to win, and needed to end the hand early to avoid someone hitting a straight, you can’t say for sure. But I don’t think I’d go all-in on the bottom end of a straight just to find out.

Only way I’d call here is if the player shoving is a known idiot who has been shoving frequently, and you think it’s highly likely they’re not on a better straight. Or, if it’s late in a tournament, the blinds are big, my stack is small, and I can’t give up any strong hand, and am OK with losing a big pot or going out for the chance to double up or knock an opponent out.

54o not closing the action just fold pre.

AP though, never ever x this flop. You’re pretty much at the top of your range and with this many players in the pot you CAN NOT give out any free cards. There aren’t any good cards for you but plenty of bad ones. Not just cards that beat you but also ones that kill your action.

Your boy shoved 5x pot with the nuts? Nah, not likely unless he hates chips and winning tournaments. It checked to him on the BTN and he probably had a piece and didn’t want to see any bad cards come out thinking he hand the best hand. When you x this flop it’s pretty much a SNAP call. Ugh.

This shove should be all the info we need to dub said player an idiot. I’d say that makes it known.

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It’s very possible. But I still don’t like to play the bottom end of a straight, or 54. But that’s probably exactly how all those idiotic hands I keep running into happen.

Fine to fold and look for a better spot. If you got bluffed, who cares? It happens. No need to possibly go broke on a hand where you have no idea where you are.

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I call everyday here on that flop. Your first reflex when you have the nuts is to value it, not to donk bet it by being scared. So you’re ahead almost all the time here, but yeah, if he has 9T, just a cooler, and of course it would be so poorly played by your opponent…

So if the other player has T9, or 95, why reward the poor play by calling, paying off the donk shove? The chips lost if you fold bad is far less than the chips lost if you call bad.

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If you think people here don’t spaz-shove the nuts, you haven’t been paying attention. Do not think logically when playing here. Try to imagine what you would do if you had 3 brain cells and were coming off a 3-day drunk. That is the average level of player you are dealing with.

Even in a good game, like the WSOP Main, calling the bottom end of the straight isn’t usually a good idea. Ask Jamie Gold. Bottom line is you have better spots.

I was just in a SnG where I open raise Kh7h on the BTN. SB and BB call. Flop is 5d/6h/8d. Checked to me and I c-bet 66%. SB shoves. In this case its a mediocre call but I’m blocking the straight, with a backdoor flush draw and I’m really only in trouble vs a set. Well, he has a set of 5’s. I hit my straight and then he rivers a diamond flush. LOL - its a goofy game and we take the amount of risk we want.

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Yes, here, spaz shove is a thing that happens all the time… I’m trying to not let that influence my play, so that I don’t become poisoned by it. I just try to stick to playing good poker.

Now, like I said, if you have a read on the player and they’re donk-shoving all the time, then absolutely by all means this would be a good time to call, because probably they’re just trusting that “scary flop + scary bet = stolen pot” and this is a good trap for that.

But yeah, there’s better hands to lose all your chips on.

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One of the oddest shoves I see all the time is AK on like a Q-high dry flop. People play it like an over-pair, even multiway. Oddest thing. Probably has to go into one of the most overrated hands thread because people have no idea how to use it and probably wind up losing more with it than they make.

Definitely they do. Also they commonly do the same thing with a set (as in your example with the set of 5s) or an overpair. I was a spectator on a hand recently in a ring game where it was a similar low connected flop, one player shoves, the other snap calls and both turn over AA lol.

So it comes down to our assumptions about their range.

Worst case scenario is they do this exclusively with a straight, in which case we are obviously crushed.

However if we think that they do this with all straights, all sets and all overpairs then we are a huge favorite against their range (better than 70:30 depending on our assumptions about their preflop limp range). If we think they also sometimes have 2 pair hands or pair+straight draws then the picture gets better for us.

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All true. My point was that its not a mandatory call. If you have an edge in the game, you can look for a better spot. I wouldn’t hate a call but I just don’t think its obligatory.

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The question then becomes, did the original “shover” sense thier opponent wasn’t playing the low draw, or a set, and shoved accordingly to extract max profit ?? Or perhaps did they shove as a defensive move to disuade any further drawing ?? Did the snap-caller sense the same things, or did they think they had too much equity to fold ?? Or even did the orig raiser try to represent the str8, and try and end it right there ??

If a player makes a “read” on thier opponent and acts accordingly, there’s always the chance that thier read was wrong, or that it was all a trap from square 1.

I can be said some players are not as skill’d @ bet-sizing, but to critisize play that almost everyone does and says is a good idea, just cause its a specific hand… to me seems shortsighted. If the correct play is to bet into your opponent(s) because you have determined you have the best hand, then whether or not you shove or bet 2x the pot, both players have correctly made the right “move” just 1 of them was a bit overexuberant in thier bet size.

There is also the perceived bully factor around here, and way too many ppl get so tired of being bullied, that they start overbetting hands to hopefully punish the bullies. There is also something to be said about shoving, once you shove you CANNOT be pushed off a hand… no level of intimidation at that point works… you’re already all in, you won’t be folding to a re-raise… or gett’n bullied off your hand…

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Or did they both think “I have pocket aces, I am invincible, I shove!”

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Due to the fact I believe I was 1 of the two players…
The hand is too old to get a replay, while I don’t
remember the betting preflop, postflop I know for
sure that I shoved 1st, after a raise/reraise. My
read was they didn’t have the baby str8, trips, or 2pr.

Since I was raised, and thinking I was ahead without
worries about draws… I ship’d it. My read was correct
neither player connected with the flop, and both were
playing paint cards. My chips went in with the best hand.
Even tho both players turned over AA and split the pot,
both players did correctly isolate 1 person, then have
a great shot to have the best hand of the two.

" I am invincible " as you say can happen anytime a
player thinks they have the nuts or are way ahead. It
does not have to be with AA.

I stick by my theory that going all in should convey
thay a player will not be pushed off thier hand in any
way. In essence its both an offensive and a defensive
move at the same time. Every book on poker that
I have every read, said… Getting your chips in, with
the best hand, is the best you can do… Long term it
is a winning strategy, even if you will not will them all.

So yes Tacos, it was simple, I wasn’t gonna dink around
with any further raises, reraises, or bs… I thought I was
ahead, either I take it down here & now, or u risk double’n
me up and losing a chunk of your chips.

Facing 2,3,5 rainbow with AA, never seems to play out
the same way… big difference between 6 limpers and
two players that bet out or raised preflop… Usually in
this case what kills AA is that random trips cause one
pocket pair got call’d by another pocket pair, and only
one of them hits the flop… great way to crack Aces…

Now @love2eattacos , you’ll have to admit…
Shoving with AA in that case is a whole different story
than calling the all in with AA… but there were bets
before either player shipp’d it , not like they saw that
flop and just shipp’d it. ( and noone shipp’d it preflop )

You’re right @Sassy_Sarah, it was you involved, but you called the shove on the flop.
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/510530107

Agreed. To be fair it does seem to happen a disproportionate amount of the time with players holding AA.

I agree with you that shoving with AA here is a different story from calling. Calling with AA you’re bluff catching and it really does depend on your read on the opponent making the shove. Personally I would rather bluff catch here with something like 77 or T9 where you have blockers to the nut straight and/or top set, and outs in case you’re wrong.

I most certainly did not. After watching the replay…
I bet out 420k ( 4x the bb ) preflop, got flat call’d by peeja…
I bet 1m post flop with middle cards on board and
peeja shoved behind, so I call’d the all in…

My read was peeja play’d high cards, yes with his raise
it was possible he hit the flop and had trips, but the shape
of the table, and his prior plays told me otherwise.