The Juicee Defence against All-In pre-flop (AKA How to win the Lottery)

I hear a lot of complaints about all in pre flop, or (BINGO)
Poker itself is doing just fine however. N.L.H.E. is an age old game with remarkable balance and a high level of skill relative to other variants. This balance is entirely dependent on the ability to go all in at any time before the river, before the turn, or even before the flop. No one street is any more special than another. I know it can bother “Me” to watch someone over zealous toss in all their chips every time but ITS POKER, I know people also dislike Limpers, Calling Stations, Time Hogs, River Catchers, Over Betters, Bluffers, Nits, Verbalizers, Criers, The Hotheads, or The Ones That Tell Everybody How They Should Play… BUT IT’S POKER… Everyone has their own reason and/or style (or lack of) for the way they play, maybe they have a style or reason for going all-in pre flop They might not feel comfortable playing post flop, or they get a rush off winning big pots, or they like being aggressive, It really doesn’t matter. There’s literally nothing unfair about it. If you are too scared to call someone who’s shoving literally every hand they’re dealt (i.e. trying to give their chips away) then you are sitting with way too many chips in play and need to play lower stakes games that are more appropriate for your chip total. People get stacked all the time playing NLHE. It’s not a big deal at all, unless you’re sitting with a lot more chips than you’re comfortable putting in the middle. In that case, you’ve picked the wrong table stakes to play at. Poker is a game of strategy. Can you imagine playing online chess and asking the player who sat with you not to use his queen because it’s too powerful? Because it allows aggressive play? That it ruins the game? How about playing rock paper scissors and getting fed up with the guy who keeps picking rock over and over because your favorite choice is scissors and his rock is ruining your game because you don’t want to adjust and you can’t find a player who’s going to pick paper more often for you. They’re playing well within the rules of the game and it’s their right to move their queen, or pick rock every turn, or go all in with AA or 94 or whatever they decide. It’s completely backwards to try and look for ways to force the players you play against to conform to a game that better suits your own play style. Proposing to banish players who gives you problems to go play at a separate game is altogether preposterous!. This also moves into time management players, if we have 10, 15, 20, 30 seconds to make a choice and someone wants to use all of it every time, or sometimes, then that is their style and choice. It’s a tactical choice to try to get into your head and get you out of your game. Unless the house rules veto’s it.
**"_Quote from replay’s code of conduct_ **"playing strategies that reflect very poor gamesmanship. This may include strategies that disrupt the natural flow of the game and are frustrating for fellow players, such as “bingo” play_`. & "We also ask players not to use the time clock as a method to retaliate against or provoke others. Intentionally running out the clock slows the game"
You need to adjust your game to combat all styles, poker is always evolving, and you MUST grow too…

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Players can go all in for a lot of reasons pre flop. Jacks not wanting over cards to call and hit a flop. Or even more realistically if no over pairs call and the flop has at least one over card which happens a very large percentage of the time you are left in no mans land. Depending on the buy in, number of bb, and level of aggression of other players at the table I’ve seen super strong hands ship it pre flop. Although you know you’d like to get some value from aces or kings not every player sees scenarios the same way. Unless I have my top 4 hands I never call an all in pre flop, maybe I’m losing some value there but it just seems like setting money on fire to assume they’re bluffing.
F. W. IT’S W, trying to play too many hands is a poor decision. Your range is weak and it lets people shove on you without fear because you probably have junk anyway that you were hoping they’d let you see a cheap flop with (which you’re no more entitled to see cheaply than you are the turn or river cards obviously).

HOW TO WIN THE LOTTERY!!!
When you face a preflop shove you only have two options, you can call or you can fold. Our guiding light in these situations is the pot odds – or what price the pot is telling us for value to make this call. If you are getting great pot odds you will end up calling more often. If you are getting bad pot odds you will typically call with a tighter range of hands. Pretty simple.

Total Pot: 1950 (1500 opponent’s bet + 300 big blind + 150 small blind)
Amount to Call: 1500 (opponent’s bet)
Pot Odds: 1.3:1 (1950:1500)
Break even: 43.5% [ 1 / (1.3 + 1) ]
This is the percent of time we need to win this pot to break even.

Here are some basic odds to help you make percentage choices

(Percentage represents the chance for 66 to Win)

66 vs. AA: 20% - 66 vs. KK: 20% - 66 vs. QQ: 20% - 66 vs. JJ: 20% - 66 vs. TT: 20%
66 vs. 99: 20% - 66 vs. 88: 19% - 66 vs. 77: 18% - 66 vs. 66: 50% - 66 vs. 55: 80%
66 vs. 44: 80% - 66 vs. 33: 80% - 66 vs. 22: 80% - 66 vs. AK: 55% - 66 vs. AQ: 55%
66 vs. AJ: 54% - 66 vs. AT: 55% - 66 vs. A9: 56% - 66 vs. A8: 56% - 66 vs. A7: 57%
66 vs. A6: 68% - 66 vs. A5: 69% - 66 vs. A4: 69% - 66 vs. A3: 69% - 66 vs. A2: 70%
66 vs. KQ: 54%

Summary of percentages:

vs. higher pockets: 20%
(4:1 underdog)

vs. lower pockets: 80%
(4:1 advantage)

vs. higher over cards: 55%
(1:0.8 advantage)

vs. one over card: 70%
(1:0.4 advantage)

Tier-1 Hands
AA vs. AQ: 92% to 8%
KK vs. AQ: 72% to 29%
AK vs. AQ: 72% to 24%

Tier-2 Hands
QQ vs. AQ: 70% to 30%
JJ vs. AQ: 58% to 43%
TT vs. AQ: 58% to 43%
AQs vs. AQ: 57% to 43%
AQ vs. AQ: 50% to 50%

All low pockets 22 - 99 vs.
AQ: 53% vs. 45% (approx.)

Don’t start questioning your play simply because you lose. Results-oriented thinking is a huge problem for many, many poker players, regardless of whether they are recreational or professionals. The human mind evolved to focus on short-term results but in poker it’s absolutely vital that you focus on the long term.

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This is an interesting thread, and there is definitely some good advice on how to deal with preflop all in play, so thank you Juicee for posting this.

However, I have a totally different opinion about bingo play and timer abuse than you do.

You say that going all in preflop every hand is a strategy that should be respected and you go as far as comparing it with moving the queen in a game of chess (or even with rock paper scissors). I find both comparisons absurd and irrelevant to poker. Going all in preflop every hand in a game of poker is nothing like deciding to move only one piece on your chess board. In fact, there are no similarities whatsoever between both games.

Instead of finding comparisons with other games, let me just give you an example that just happened to me now, in a tourney I’m still playing. 5 players at the table, 1 empty seat, and a great game of poker gets interrupted by a 6th player who joins the table, and declares: “I hate this table, and I’m going all in every hand”, and starts going all in preflop every hand. He lasted for about 10 hands, during which he knocked out 3 or 4 players, by winning with ridiculously low cards while his callers lost with AA and KK etc… until he finally lost. I’m the one who knocked him out by the way, so I’m not complaining because I lost. I’m complaining because he ruined a perfectly nice game for us, knocked out really good players, and then lost. He didn’t even leave, he stayed and kept being rude to everyone.

Obviously his bingo play was meant ONLY to disrupt the game and annoy everyone, not to apply strategies and win. If you still find such behavior acceptable because “poker is doing fine and evolving and everyone can play as they please”, I can only respect your opinion but I very strongly disagree.

The same thing goes for clock abusers.

There is nothing tactical about this. This is mentioned in Replay code of conduct and as per latest polls and threads and contests on the forums, a vast majority of players here dislike this behavior, and we all know it can be reported and moderated.

So, while I agree with having strategies to deal with bingo play and get the chips of bingo players or die trying lol, I disagree with encouraging such play and considering it as a good strategy that we all have to deal with.

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And I thank you for that Maya, My point is more to the way poker started, and yes house rules veto founding rules, I just think everyone needs to be prepared for any type of player that comes to your table, instead of refusing to adjust their play and expecting others to bend to that style. Other sites will have different house rules & live poker will have it’s own as well. I just want to keep people from getting tunnel vision… Huggs And thank you for your thoughts

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Absolutely!!!

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I don’t play that much. I’ve been here about 18 months and have played about 25K hands. I only remember seeing one player come to the table (I play almost exclusively MTTs) and announce that he/she was going all in until he/she lost. Within a few hands, it was over.
I would very much appreciate Maya, if you would post the example you mention in this post. I’d very much like to see what the issue is all about. It would be helpful if you would use this example as you are very specific about it.
Thanks, -ed

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Is that a real quote??? lol

Sure no problem at all.
Start with this hand when he first joined the table, and watch them till he’s knocked out. Also keep an eye on the chat to see what I was talking about.

Hope this helps :slight_smile:

I have seen many of them, in many tourneys, during my time on this website. Maybe it’s the format or the stakes of the tourneys I play, or just a coincidence, but I can assure you there are quite a few who do it.

Thank you Maya.

Yes, at bottom of lobby pages, under site rules. :slight_smile:

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@JuiceeLoot, one VERY important thing to consider is the consequences of losing when you call the all-in.

Do you have the shover covered? If you lose, you can continue to play in the game, and maybe recover. By how much do you have them covered? Will you be crippled if you lose, or will you still have a healthy enough stack that you don’t have to turn desperate?

If they have you covered, how do you feel about being eliminated this hand? Are you ready for your tournament to be done if you lose? If not, it’s probably best to fold, even if it means losing more chips than you really should.

Is this a regular ring game, or is it a tournament? If it’s a tournament, what’s the cost of going out on this hand vs. folding and lasting potentially several places longer?

The above considerations play into my mind a lot more than the specific odds of winning the hand with whatever cards I have, or trying to read my opponent to somehow guess what range of cards they’re shoving with.

In a tournament, at a table with a player who employs the shove frequently, I play a long, patient, waiting game against them. Early on, mostly I’ll fold, unless I happen to be holding something very strong. Preflop, that means AA, KK. I don’t like calling with AK – it’s stronger to shove with AK than to call. After the flop, that means two pair, trips, a straight, flush, something more than just a pair, and something on the nutty end of the possible hands that can be made given the board.

In a MTT, very frequently table rebalances will remove me from the proximity of that shover, and that’s just as well. I’ll remember their name and keep an eye on the leaderboard, and if I see them again later, I’ll know something about how to play them when our paths cross. The lesson there is: You don’t have to beat the shover. You can evade them, run from them, stalk them, trap them. In any given hand, the choice is simple: call or fold. Taking into consideration the long game, it’s a bit more sophisticated than that.

Later in the tournament, I’ll become more willing to call a shove, particularly once I’ve lasted long enough to be guaranteed money, but I still don’t like to do it unless I’m down to a short stack, 10-12BB or so, and holding cards that I can’t afford to not play when I’m shoved at.

The pot odds and the hand vs. hand odds are interesting to consider, and perhaps I can incorporate that into my game, and play this situation a bit better. But I’ve been doing pretty well as it is, and haven’t taken this into consideration much at all.

Another important consideration: what’s this player’s reputation? Are they shove-happy, or do they do it very rarely? Take notes on your opponents, and you’ll figure out what they’re shoving. Just watch and fold early, and take note. Then toward the end, you’ll perhaps have enough intelligence gathered on them to be able to know when you can safely make that call. Some players will shove very frequently, with literally almost anything. Some players will only shove premium pairs.

You play each type of player very differently. For the player shoving any two cards, are they a fool or are they using position and circumstances to make effective bluffs? If they’re last to act on the hand, and no one bet ahead of them, could be they’re just shoving to steal the pot, and may be vulnerable to you calling them. Are they doing this regularly, way more frequently than they’re likely to be getting dealt premium cards? If so, it may be profitable to call them when you’re holding an Ace but haven’t made the hand – they might have nothing either, and if neither of you makes a hand, you’ll win with high card Ace.

Are they shoving frequently because they’re the short stack and need to play extra-aggressive to steal some pots and blinds to get their stack back to a healthy position? If you can read motivation into the betting behavior, it can tell you when to call and when to fold.

If they shove rarely, probably they’re over-playing their big hands. Just stay out the way, let them win the blinds with their best hands. Take their chips on other hands, winning smaller pots and chip away at them little by little, and duck out of the way when they swing that big all-in bet like a slow haymaker you can see coming a mile away. Wait and wait on a hand when they shove and you happen to have AA – they may turn up TT or JJ and you can get them. Otherwise, respect that they probably have something strong when they shove.

Remember if they shove preflop, the best they can have is a pocket pair, and lots of hands can beat a pair. Pairs can improve to two pair, sets, boats, and quads, but often pairs don’t improve at all.

Do you notice them shoving in specific situations? Make note of that and exploit it. I had a hand recently that ended a 9-seat SNG, where my opponent was prone to shoving into me when I min-bet at the flop. Just as the 3rd place finisher was eliminated and we went heads-up, I happened to flop trips, which I checked in order to appear weak. He checked too, which isn’t uncommon when the flop has a pair, because people who miss are scared of trips, and people who have trips are trying to hide their trips to get the people who are scared of trips to feel comfortable betting or calling. On the Turn, my trips turned into a full house, and he checked to me again. So, remembering his propensity to shove at me when I min bet, I tried a min bet, and predictably he shoved back, and I had him. Won the tournament. I felt like I was controlling him with my betting behavior, and had spent the whole game setting him up by folding every time he shoved at me until I had eliminated all the weaker players in the game, then laid a trap for him by triggering the shove when I wanted him all in so I could win the game.

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Very true!

And even when you finally call them with AA or KK, you might lose and even get knocked out of a tourney, like in this example.

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Puggy, this is the best post you’ve ever written, at least the best of yours that I’ve read. Excellent work.

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Well thanks, that’s awfully nice of you to say.

Yes I agree with Alan on your insightful post on the topic, you added to this very well… That is also why I have 4 set hands that I will go all in with on anybody, but those are odd based pre flop hands that should win 8 out of 10 times in theory, but cards are random so don’t question the odds if you lose 4 times in a row, because of someone getting lucky while you are struggling. The odds won’t change… Thanks Again for you contribution…

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I was playing a ring game the other night while waiting for a tourney and one player went all in pre-flop and I decided to call (can’t recall what I had"). Anyway, I won the hand with a 10-A straight on the river and one of the other players called me “Another Riverboat Gambler”. I assumed it was an insult but didn’t engage in any chat. The player who called the all-in pre-flop then proceeded to call all-in on about 8-10 next hands, but only one or two players took up the offer. After he continued to do it, I wrote “Seriously?” and the Riverboat Gambler guy replied “you can talk. He (the all-in guy) likes to pull people’s strings”. I wasn’t enjoying the table so left, which I think is the best option when enjoyment fades.

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I agree, And you handled that quite well good job, I hope it never happens to you during a tourney, It’s a lot tougher to not let it get to you when you can’t leave the table, and then you might make a bad call or two. I’ve been called several things worse than a riverboat gambler & really had to hold my tongue. And then all I wanted to do was to knock out the name caller and ended up making several raising and calling errors. So do whatever you can to not let them change your game…

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I agree with Juicee in that you handled it well.
Some ppl seem to enjoy coming in and “pulling people’s strings” without giving any thought to what they’re saying.
In a couple of situations, I’ve had a player call me a river rat…I was able to point out that I had my hand on the flop but instead of saying “oh yeah I see you did now” or even “oh” they just leave the table.
I would imagine, for these ppl, sites like RP is a great place for them to go after their crappy day and vent their frustrations with life in general…sad but true :wink:

It’s one thing to go all in occasionally, say when you have pocket aces or face cards, particularly when there is a substantially pot already AND you are not risking many thousands to go all in.

It is quite another to go all in again and again and again and again, risking 5,000 chips or more to “win” a pot of 250 chips.

When I saw one player going all in every single time, I called him with Ace 7. He turned over and showed 3,4. Think that’s a good all in hand? I don’t.
His friend called all in with 8,4. Even if I didn’t catch an ace, my high card would have beat them, but I did and eliminated two players who were ruining everything for everybody else.

The biggest hand I ever won was 37,000 chips, calling Mister All In in HI/LO.
I had Ace, deuce of clubs and two other high cards, I can’t remember what. My ace deuce won low and the other cards won high. He left the table, thankfully.
Do you think he learned a lesson? I seriously doubt it.

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