Slow Players & Tables for Faster players

Suggestions & Feedback
22

@Sassy_Sarah
What you’re saying is you want to dictate how other players use or don’t use thier time. Noooooooooooooo that is not what im saying at all.

Yea ive more recently tried to clarrify this in previous thread. my original post wasnt clear enough.

  1. im not complaining about players using all the time when necessary.
  2. i dont want to create a system to dictate

Let me try to summarise as succinctly as possible. Im complaining about slow trolls that deliberately waste time almost every hand & very slow players that take 75% of time almost every hand. players that are repeatedly much slower on average almost every hand.

These are limited special tables for faster players - players that want to avoid slow players not fast turbo tables. Give all players a speed rating as previously mentioned by @theanalyst01 or give only the players that want a speed rating. ATTP: “average time to play” is the speed rating.

Only players that qualify: have an ATTP above the min will be allowed to join these tables. All other tables will operate as per normal.

23

You complain if they take max time when you determine they don’t need to, but are fine if they use all the time if its a hard decision. You also say both current versions are ““Too fast””, yet complain about ppl using the timer ?

You think Pro players like Chris Furguson wasting 30 seconds everytime ???

Dogs, online poker has so few tells, but 1 of them IS how much time a player uses. Some players use all the timer to uniformly time thier bets, or to emulate Furguson’s playstyle.

Pick a timer length, I don’t care what that is… but once you set the timer, don’t ever complain about how a players uses it. Next Dogs, think about things that staff could give us to speed up play that aren’t timer related…

When I wanna pre-fold and cannot, then that table must get my attention if someone bets out and I have check/fold check’d. Give us a Fold only button @ all times. Perhaps I’m also watching TV, so a “ding” when its my turn would be really helpfull so you’re not waiting for me to notice its my darn turn. Along the same lines I suggested and they implemented a ding when a table needs your attention that is NOT the current open table, but what they forgot is to give some clue ( like in the tray, or the border of window ) which table I need to act on. playing 4 tables you hear a ding, which of the other 3 tables needs me to act… takes time to flip thru all 4. Its awesome for 2 tables, there’s only 1 other table it could be.

Better pre-action choices and buttons themselves can speed up play. Recently I was playing PLO and my last bet there was no way to go all in other than the slider. I couldn’t pay a full pot so that wasn’t lit up and there was no all in button.

If you increase the playability or functionality of the tables themselves, that will lend itself to faster play in general, but you will never stop a player from using the full timer because thats thier choice, not yours.
Sassy

1 Like
24

@DogsOfWar, thanks, I’d only leave the discussion if I was going in a completely different direction to the intent of the OP - you, in this case. Since we seem to be talking about the same thing and moving in the same direction, I’m delighted to contribute what little I can :slight_smile:

If we come up with something that is workable for RP to implement, that’d be fantastic. For the moment, I’m enjoying the intellectual side of it with no expectation of anything going further.

Hi @Sassy_Sarah, thanks for joining in! I’ve read a few things you’ve written and you always add value to the discussion.

I don’t want to speak for Dogs but I read the OP as meaning that s/he wants a ranking of some sort based on what I called “Average Time To Play” (ATTP). We currently have site rankings and tournament points, maybe some others that I’m not familiar with. I think that Dogs was suggesting that we could have ATTP ranking as well.

With some sort of ATTP ranking, we could look at a player profile and see that they tend to play quick or tend to run the clock down. I didn’t see a suggestion of actually changing the timer in any way but maybe I missed that bit?

Going further, what I understood Dogs to be suggesting is that, once that ATTP ranking is in place, there could be tables that are restricted to people above/below a certain number. A rough analogy would be the New Player Freerolls which are restricted. Paid tournaments all have a restriction on who can play based on their bank balance. And so on.

For what it’s worth, I totally agree with you regarding SnG/MTT - it does my head in, SnG in particular! I’m a bit conflicted about MTTs - because, as you noted, RP doesn’t have Hand4Hand, running the timer down pre bubble and even when we’re all ITM is a legitimate way of surviving the pop/laddering up. I don’t particularly like or agree with it but it’s there and it’s definitely not for me to complain about anybody playing within the rules.

Finally, yes, I do think there are some table changes that could be made that would speed up game play for people like you and I and, I expect, Dogs.

I think that Dogs complaint, I really do feel the pain here, is about people who are deep stacked in a ring game taking more time to fold than Negreanu needs to raise all in when playing heads up in a major tournament.

Rather than just complaining, Dogs had the decency to suggest a solution. I respect that and I’m very happy to see where that discussion goes.

Keep up the Sassy work, I look forward to hearing more from you :slight_smile:

Regards,
TA

1 Like
25

@Sassy_Sarah

Thanks for your input. A lot of what ur saying is really off topic. Im not interested in bells & whistles or new table development for the purpose of this thread.

I could also mention that the new tables seem to have removed the Auto Post Blinds button that was on the old tables if im not mistaken - that was almost completely pointless except for wasting time everytime players got the SB/BB. Thats a great move imo but its completely unrelated to the OP.

Your point about giving away tells isn’t relevant to the points im making. I understand this though. I often use the the time it take to bet to indicate a bluff etc, and fool opponent into calling my “bluff”.

Let me give an example: If your in early position and fold fast you dont give away a tell. Folding fast or slow is mostly meaningless and simply helps the game progress. Lets say the button raises 3x pot. You are the SB with random garbage cards. folding fast or slow doesn’t really give away any tell. The tell is folding which says my cards arent good enough to see a flop.

Using your analogy or reference to Furguson like these players are wasting time every hand like its a skill to not give away tells is ridiculous. Im talking about players that runs the clock over 12 seconds every turn. Using a set amount of time not to give away tells is relevant to actually playing a pot ie calling or raising etc.

Watch a live game and you will see the pros folding pre flop fast. they don’t waste 10 seconds or so every hand so as not to give away the a tell that is nothing: my hands not good enough to play the pot. Also consider that they usually dont look at their cards until its their time to act. that means they are acting very fast. they actually often raise pre flop very quickly too. Why? bc there is nothing to think about and no tells to give away. this is very standard poker.

thanks for your input. no offence but i dont think you understand the point of this thread & i doubt you have read much of what has already been discussed.

im not interested in explaining it or discussing it any futher with you but thanks for your input

26

@theanalyst01

this was a good summary. i couldnt say it any better myself. Thanks

27

Analyst,
I fear my attempt to talk in realtime with Dogs backfired.

This is about special tables for fast players but @ its core its about speed of play. Its like saying … whats a good idea, and can I get it thru congress.

My fear is a horrible ranking system for speed of play, and keeping that ranking so special tables aren’t taken away. I also fear the resources that would have to be shifted from the beta tables to this, … that ain’t gonna happen.

Will me playing a promotion be exempt from any calculation ? How many ppl will constantly lose/gain the ability to play such tables ( being right on the cusp ). Will my connection or browser be included in that calculation ??

Why not attack slo play from the things functionally that are easy fix’s ?? There are far more reasons for slow play than just ppl being a Jerk.

Even something simple as manual betting is made more difficult, thus takes more time on the beta tables… or no pre-action for fold only, just a check/fold option. Not to mention not even knowing its your turn if you’re multitasking, thus wasting time, or playing 4 tables @ once. All of these things contribute to slower play. None of them really should hurt your ranking, or should they ??

Analyst, I get a disconnect when someone says ( not u ) , both current table timers are too fast, but at the same time I want players to play faster. I stay away from non-fast timer tables because I want what Dogs wants, faster play in general and a good flow to betting. That being said if 8 other ppl use all the timer on a fast timer table, its gonna be a slow darn hand. I refuse to tell them they don’t have that option.

Yes Analyst its an intellectual discussion, and I like the discussion, I just think there’s more too it than just ppl being Jerks. If good ideas are poorly implemented, the end result is worse than we start with. Im generally a fast player but my guess is … in order to get and keep a speed ranking … I’d have to never play mult tables or ring promotions. Thats too restrictive for me.

There never will be a concensus on what criteria to use and how its used … for the Speed Ranking. Plus this is analagous to ppl that play NL then complain ppl are betting too agressively ( bingo ). You cannot say " you get a 10 sec timer, but we really only want you to use 4 sec of it." Be darn glad its not a 60 sec timer. Why not just have superfast (4sec) timer tables ? PPL who can’t play that fast, just won’t join.

Again I agree with Dogs on faster play , no stalling… but
Like any freedom, take it away now, and somehwere down the line it might bite you in the butt. ToC/CoC says its against rules , yet how many ppl are actually disclipined for it ?

I actually liked Dogs suggestion, that was till I thought about it for awhile and posted on it a few times. I will even still support it, if before that, we get all the functional issues that waste time fix’d 1st.
Sassy

1 Like
28

@Sassy_Sarah, you make some good points. I knew it was well worth having you in this conversation :grin:

If you read my first post in reply to @DogsOfWar you will see that I was pondering the same problems of lag, slow computers and so on. I also expressed concern about using scarce resources, server time and bandwidth, for a project like this.

In my next post I indicated, not very clearly, I’m sorry, that the ideal end point of this discussion would be that the contributors have a clear statement of specifications and, hopefully, a rough outline of a suggested algorithm. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable bringing this little discussion to the attention of RP mangement if we had any less than that.

We know that the HTML5 tables have to be across the board before the end of the year. I’d expect that the timeline is to roll out as many as possible before the end of June and stomp on all of the big bugs. The intense programming pressue will be over at that point. Definitely not easy, there’s still no time to relax, but the programmers will be able to shower occasionally and maybe go home every second weekend :slight_smile:

From July on, the pressure will be to roll out the rest of the tables within 3 months. That will certainly expose some new big bugs and fixing the smaller bugs may break things in an unexpected way.

I mention this so that you can see that I understand that very little or nothing except the HTML5 tables is going to happen before October.

I have taken your other points on board but I think we’re in danger of veering too far off topic if I try to address everything.

I’d like you and Dogs to consider this:
This is a proposed ring game implementation. SnG and MTT are not affected and not included in my thinking.

This proposal is certainly not taking anything away from anyone. We already have “normal” and “turbo” tables. This is a third option - restricted entry to a small number of new tables. The only people who will be in any way affected are those who want to play on the restricted tables. There is nothing special about the tables except that all of the players on those particular tables have an ATTP meeting some benchmark.

ATTP will only be (re)calculated when a player is active at one of those restricted tables. Other ring games, all MTT, all SnG will not affect your ATTP. If you want to multi-table, I won’t stand in your way :slight_smile: I’d suggest that you multi-table using one of the other 2 options that you already have but if you can maintain your ATTP rank, feel free to multi-table on the restricted tables.

There is no loss of freedom.

I see no problem with promotions: if there’s a promo for, say, 100/200 ring games and there’s a 100/200 ATTP table, it can be included in the promo. There’s always the other 2 options for people who don’t want to care about ATTP.

Sassy, I really hope I’ve cleared up the way I’m thinking and that you can see that I’m proposing an extension to existing “freedoms” rather than any form of restriction.

I hope, if we can come to an understanding about these things, we can start work on how the ATTP might work in practice :slight_smile:

I expect that @DogsOfWar will have some suggestions as well.

Regards,
TA

1 Like
29

Actually, this is restricting in promotions. To get the top spots in ring game promotions, you have to play multiple tables. If you don’t have the appropriate ATTP, you would be unable to join one of the open tables (at some levels and times, finding 3 or 4 tables to join is hard). On top of that, a normally fast player may slow down considerably when playing multiple tables, thus lowering the ATTP of that player. I am not totally against your idea, but if implemented, I don’t think any of your “special” tables should count towards promotions. Promotions are meant to allow all players to participate.

30

Hey there @bahia7, thanks for your thoughts - very much appreciated :slight_smile:

The restricted tables, as I said, would be additional to the existing tables. If you are good enough to play multiple ATTP tables, fill yer boots :grin:

Again, I’m not suggesting that anyone should lose anything. My proposal is that, if there is an ATTP ranking, there are additional tables. If there’s 10 tables available now, maybe there would be 11 tables in the future?

Nobody loses anything.

People playing ATTP tables can join or not join promos. Who cares?

If people like you see that there’s now more tables and feel excluded well, I really don’t know what to do about that. You haven’t lost anything, you also haven’t gained. ATTP players who try to multi-table while playing ATTP will probably find that they lose their rank but that also doesn’t affect anybody except the ATTP players.

There’s tournaments I can’t play. I’m not a new player any more so I’m excluded. I don’t have a sufficient bankroll so playing 1M tournaments excludes me. If there’s a promo for new players? I’m excluded! If there’s a promo for 1M entry tournaments? I’m excluded.

I’m sorry, I really don’t think any of us have the right to join every tournament or every table just because it’s there. There are restrictions.

I want to be clear. More tables, even if they are restricted, does not affect anybody. You will have the same problems then as you have now.

I’m buying out of this conversation now until and unless contributors understand that @DogsOfWar and I are not proposing any restrictions on any players.

I hope this helps
Regards,
TA

31

@bahia7
Personally I agree. Don’t offer any promo on these “special tables”. There doesn’t seem to be many anyway. i showed some interest in promo or winter games etc and couldn’t even find a leader board. I cant find anythink on Dashboard etc.

Obviously personally im not interested in promo or winter games etc but my personal preference is irrelevant as to whether or not it should be included. I think it would be best to exclude it for simplification and to avoid problems & focus on the point of these “special tables”.

Players that play muliple tables are one of the biggest culprits for slowing a game down. I’ve noticed a few that play 7 or 8 tables that often run the timer out for 20sec. They almost certainly have average or unplayable hands that they notice and ignore whilst trying to juggle other tables & playable hands.

These “special tables” which will be very limited - a fraction like 1/10 or 1/5 of the already existing tables. They wont compete or distract from the current poker ecosystem. Players that want to play multiple tables can still do so.

These “special tables” will offer a small minority of players the opportunity to avoid all slow players and maintain a good paced game. Slow players: slow multitabling, slow deliberate trolls, players with excessive lag issues, players that dont care about wasting time. I’m sure there are other reasons for playing slowly.

Im not against promo or events etc, whatever they are called being run on these “speccial tables” but it needs to be proven these promos or events wont conflict with the whole point of these tables. @bahia7 has already made some good points that they would.

P.S. we need a decent name for these special tables. Introducing the term ATTP was good.
Also it hasnt been stated, but i felt it was fairly obvious that these “special table” are a suggestion for ring games only not SnGs or MTT. For reasons i will discus later slow players is more of a problem in ring games & less problematic in tournaments.

32

@theanalyst01

Ive not read this thread for a little bit. thanks for your input.

I agree we definitely need a concise and accurate outline & plan b4 we bother approaching RP management with this idea. Im confident that this is indeed a great idea but 99.5% confident RP wont be interested in the least never mind actually considering it. i know that sounds pessimistic but its simply not beneficial enough for RP to bother with even with a great plan.

This idea was mine, but the thread never belongs to the OP in my opinion. I agree with 99% of all your posts & you seem to understand very well the original purpose and intent of these “special tables”. your past few posts have been great & ill support you if u do end up completing an outline & implementation plan. i have a few small ideas & suggestions that are mostly speculative at the point. ill post a little later.

Thanks for your input
Dogs

33

Hey all thanks for input & interest.

Im going to try and clarify a few things that, TBH @theanalyst01 has already done, so in that case i guess im just adding credence to what s/he has already said.

Thanks @theanalyst01 for suggesting that these “special tables” (im hating that name everytime i keep typing it) are for ring games only. that was my original intent but i never made it clear in my drunken ramblings.

these tables are not

  • going to discriminate or force players to change their play style
  • for fast players nor are they turbo timed
  • going to negatively affect the current poker ecosystem

what these tables are intended for and for whom

  • these tables will be very limited and wont affect players that arent interested in playing them.
  • for players that want to avoid slow players NOT for players that want to play fast
  • set a standard for playing at a reasonable pace

Slow players: slow trolls deliberately wasting time, players that dont care about wasting time, players lagging badly, multi tabling time wasters not Chris Furgeson or decently skilled players that need a reasonable amount of time to act.

additional points & idea i have had for a long time now:
the ATTP could, and probably should be an optional stat for players that are interested only, hence not default or mandatory.

ATTP will be a seperate rating for every buy in amount & TablePlayersNo#. example player: RPlayer07 400/400 6player rating: figure.

The ATTP: could be represented either :

1. % of time to act each hand averaged: 4sec to act divided by 30sec x 100=%, then add all calculations & divide by number
OR
2. calculated as number of hands played per hour

im not sure how replay works, data is collected, stored, calculated, then updated to profile & replaypoker.com so this is speculative. i do know replay stores all hands# & the action time is somehow recorded too. a possibility could be to extrapolate or farm data somehow from stored hands to get a ATTP rating for each player for say past 50-100 hands.

Players could either request for a ATTP rating before they start playing a certain stake & have the next 50-100 hands calculated or maybe request old data. This could be processed in the off-peak time of replay possibly, so possibly a 24hr or daily. I also propose a small process fee of 1BB.

Also as a note replay has very limited stats on all our profiles that is updated - i havent checked how often, but it could be very quickly. An active ATTP might also be extremely easy calculate.

Whatever the solution getting, calculating & updating this ATTP it needs to add no or almost no additional burden on replay servers.

Also it could be a subscription service or part of a sub. this would limit & possibly more than offset all costs associated. replay ask if i want to buy chip, but i dont need to, or make a tip, but i dont feel incentivised to do so. i would pay for a worthwhile sub that included some benefits.

P.S. as a side note i always avoid turbo tables if possible bc i want time to think when i need it. also if i lag a bit im almost always timed out on turbo tables. this is exceptionally frustrating in big pots & potentially very costly. im decently fast but speed is nothing to brag about. i dont seek to play on fast tables. i do try to avoid slow players & slow tables.

34

There’s a timer for a reason. Some people will use it as a psychological factor to get under the skin of others & you’re proof that that tactic works on some people. It seems like when someone starts with the “zzzzzzz” comments then it get’s worse. Just my opinion.

2 Likes
35

Your right. Definitely its psychological. Its called being a troll. For sure im more easily irritated than others. The thing is if i can tolerate the slow play i usually destroy them.

It almost always successfully irritates me but rarely gets any chips out of me.

36

Lets start with quote 2, #2 …
Hands played per hour lumps all players together as a combined piece of data, that are on that table. Thus #2 is not player specific therefore cannot be used.
While #1 tells me you want ppl to act in an ave of 4 seconds (basically).

Moving on to quote 1 …
You said lightning tables are “way too fast already”, yet have a timer of 8-10 seconds. Also reg ( 20 sec ) timer tables are “too fast” … in your opinion…

Im confused totally now, if ~4seconds is the target, that to me seems “way way way too fast” if lightning tables are “way too fast”. Also if its ok if I have a good reason to take longer, who actually decides if my reason is good or not ? You ??

Your original post was in your words, drunken ramblings… Is it possible this all sounded good on paper, but in real life not so much ? I just am dumbfounded that you say the fast timer tables are way too fast, yet you want players to play twice as fast … That just makes no sense to me.
On a side note turbo tables have nothing to do with the timers and are SnG not Rings. They have less starting chips, and faster increasing blinds, thats why they are Turbo tables. Lets not further confuse ppl, plz.

I have played on what would be considered Turbo Timer Tables. Its Tough !!
You get 3 sec timers, thats it… :rofl: … Thats my limit, because thats not even enuff time for manual betting. Its use a button or fold… hahahaha.

In online Poker, there are 3 basic inputs (tells) … how/when you bet, how much you bet, and how long it takes you to bet. Knowing this, when evaluating time2bet, I had to ferret out all non player reasons for a longer time. It is true, time2bet, means something… therefore trying to take the same time every action, is a logical/rational way to bet, to mask any read from time2bet.

I’m trying to keep a str8 face :neutral_face: when I ask, will you be able to keep a speed ranking to play on the very tables you want created ?? :thinking: I mean if fast timers are “way too fast” …

This all sounds like the bingo debate… Yes I wanna be able to go all in, but noone should go all in unless they have a pretty good hand… I agree those ppl have options… PL, ML, FL, just not NL… but its trying to dictate another players actions that yet another player deems wrong… uhhhh No !!

Lets address the little things that will speed up play, and that Replay can easily give us, before we try and develop new tables that need a new rating system. There’s a darn good reason why so few players are busted for breaking the rules and playing slow. There’s too many legitimate reasons for slower play, therefore proving those few players that are actually Jerks and are doing it, is very tough.

Tell you what DogsOfwar, I’ll pump :syringe: your Idea with steroids…
Public-Private tables… What do I mean by that you ask :
Public in that once created from a template, anyone can join.
Private in that you decide, from a template, … Timer limit, Buyin limits, & Blinds.
Sure, there is no ATTP rank, but you could create a faster than lightning table.
Staff would only have to come up with a approved template for tables.

But I do get it Dogs, you want 20 seconds when you need it, you just hope noone else needs it and just takes 3-5 seconds. :roll_eyes: .
Sassy

2 Likes
37

@Sassy_Sarah
please stop quoting the same passage over & over again

ur a bit slow & dont seem to get it. u keep quoting the same passage & beating it like a dead horse

Let me break it down: part 1 quoted
I dont want nor am i suggesting faster tables as a means of getting a decent paced game. as all RP players i have the option to not play turbo tables.
Im happy with the normal tables.

Part 2 quote
1 i an example of how to calculate and average its not the standard (ignore 4 and sub any number 1-30 idc)
2 calculated number of hands played per hour per player

The section 2 your quote is regarding ATTP. This is a individual player score or rating. This needs to be calcluated or formulated.

How cant you figure out i simply missed out the point? ?per player? ? its called a typo. im not going to bother with the rest of your post. i think u continue to ramble & mock over a simple typing error that an intelligent person could understand was a mistake.

again you have little to contribute worthwhile but thanks for trying

38

Honestly, I think you missed her point. Hands played per hour per player, only tells you how fast the table is playing, not how fast the individual is playing. I could play five tables at once, and whether I act fast or slow, my hands played per hour would be high. Same thing if I was playing at bingo table. Since these seem to be the players you want to exclude from your tables, you might want to think of a better rating system.

2 Likes
39

Hey guys, I think I started most of this confusion and it seems to have turned into a cat fight!

I’m really sorry about that. I thought I was helping @DogsOfWar explain but it seems that we all understand the proposal in different ways on different days. I think that includes Dogs. It’s certainly obvious that I helped in some ways and hurt in other ways.

For the sake of peace and my own sanity it’s time I bought out. I’ll continue to read, occasionally, but I’m unlikely to contribute further.

@DogsOfWar, I appreciate the kind comments you’ve made regarding my contributions. It is certainly not your fault nor could I lay blame on any other individual.

If nothing else I have the proud pleasure of coining the acronym ATTP - may it live forever :slight_smile:

Regards,
TA

1 Like
40

" Rules are meant to be broken though." Some people think the rules only apply to others.

41

@bahia7 thanks for your input

No its not that im missing her point its that sassy clearly 1 either hasnt read much of the old post or has very limited understanding of what @theanalyst01 & myself have been proposing & discussing 2 objects to everything that has been proposed 3 doesnt understand the point/theme of the thread & continuously goes way off subject.

Ive explained things many times but she fails to understand & continues to go on about points that have already been resolved. The title is very simple "Slow Players & Tables for Faster players. Sassy reads it “fast tables for fast players”. She talks about people being excluded or discriminated against. If you read and understand the point/theme of this post it discriminates less than your bankroll & the different stakes for RING, SnGs, MTT games.

Its pointless & exhausting continuously explaining things to sassy when she has very little suggestions, constructive criticism or intelligent input. As stated im not wasting my time reading/responding to the entire post, especially if she doesnt bother reading mine. Ive already thanked her for her input and told her previously i dont want to discuss anything further with her.

If you read old posts here @theanalyst01 coined the term ATTP: average time to play hand. It was a simple concept & easy to understand individual player rating, much like how many chips a player has or player rank. That being understood means the propoesed 1. & 2. were both different ways to calculate & represent ATTP as a figure. Again thats for an individual player not table.

Anyone reading the old posts, especially about ATTP should fairly easily be able to understand the calculations need to be done for the player not table.

The tables already have H/hr for ring tables calculated & displayed by RP. I can easily sit at a table & after a few seconds or minutes tell if the tables general speed & players general speed: very fast, fast, normal, slow, very slow. Why is it so hard to believe we could easily devise a system to accurately rate/score players speed or more importantly slowness.

Thanks again for your input & to everyone else, especially @theanalyst01. This thread was purely 99.9% for interests sake and i 99.9% guarantee we would never see these tables on RP. I agree with @theanalyst01 that this thread has turned into a cat fight thats a complete waste of time & effort.

To all,
Please if you have some meaningful, intelligent, constructive criticism, suggestions, ideas, feedback that’s related to the thread/theme then leave a comment. I will probably ignore all off topic, unrelated ramblings & troll like comments.

Thanks,
Dogs