Slow Players & Tables for Faster players

Your right. Definitely its psychological. Its called being a troll. For sure im more easily irritated than others. The thing is if i can tolerate the slow play i usually destroy them.

It almost always successfully irritates me but rarely gets any chips out of me.

Lets start with quote 2, #2
Hands played per hour lumps all players together as a combined piece of data, that are on that table. Thus #2 is not player specific therefore cannot be used.
While #1 tells me you want ppl to act in an ave of 4 seconds (basically).

Moving on to quote 1 …
You said lightning tables are “way too fast already”, yet have a timer of 8-10 seconds. Also reg ( 20 sec ) timer tables are “too fast” … in your opinion…

Im confused totally now, if ~4seconds is the target, that to me seems “way way way too fast” if lightning tables are “way too fast”. Also if its ok if I have a good reason to take longer, who actually decides if my reason is good or not ? You ??

Your original post was in your words, drunken ramblings… Is it possible this all sounded good on paper, but in real life not so much ? I just am dumbfounded that you say the fast timer tables are way too fast, yet you want players to play twice as fast … That just makes no sense to me.
On a side note turbo tables have nothing to do with the timers and are SnG not Rings. They have less starting chips, and faster increasing blinds, thats why they are Turbo tables. Lets not further confuse ppl, plz.

I have played on what would be considered Turbo Timer Tables. Its Tough !!
You get 3 sec timers, thats it… :rofl: … Thats my limit, because thats not even enuff time for manual betting. Its use a button or fold… hahahaha.

In online Poker, there are 3 basic inputs (tells) … how/when you bet, how much you bet, and how long it takes you to bet. Knowing this, when evaluating time2bet, I had to ferret out all non player reasons for a longer time. It is true, time2bet, means something… therefore trying to take the same time every action, is a logical/rational way to bet, to mask any read from time2bet.

I’m trying to keep a str8 face :neutral_face: when I ask, will you be able to keep a speed ranking to play on the very tables you want created ?? :thinking: I mean if fast timers are “way too fast” …

This all sounds like the bingo debate… Yes I wanna be able to go all in, but noone should go all in unless they have a pretty good hand… I agree those ppl have options… PL, ML, FL, just not NL… but its trying to dictate another players actions that yet another player deems wrong… uhhhh No !!

Lets address the little things that will speed up play, and that Replay can easily give us, before we try and develop new tables that need a new rating system. There’s a darn good reason why so few players are busted for breaking the rules and playing slow. There’s too many legitimate reasons for slower play, therefore proving those few players that are actually Jerks and are doing it, is very tough.

Tell you what DogsOfwar, I’ll pump :syringe: your Idea with steroids…
Public-Private tables… What do I mean by that you ask :
Public in that once created from a template, anyone can join.
Private in that you decide, from a template, … Timer limit, Buyin limits, & Blinds.
Sure, there is no ATTP rank, but you could create a faster than lightning table.
Staff would only have to come up with a approved template for tables.

But I do get it Dogs, you want 20 seconds when you need it, you just hope noone else needs it and just takes 3-5 seconds. :roll_eyes: .
Sassy

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@Sassy_Sarah
please stop quoting the same passage over & over again

ur a bit slow & dont seem to get it. u keep quoting the same passage & beating it like a dead horse

Let me break it down: part 1 quoted
I dont want nor am i suggesting faster tables as a means of getting a decent paced game. as all RP players i have the option to not play turbo tables.
Im happy with the normal tables.

Part 2 quote
1 i an example of how to calculate and average its not the standard (ignore 4 and sub any number 1-30 idc)
2 calculated number of hands played per hour per player

The section 2 your quote is regarding ATTP. This is a individual player score or rating. This needs to be calcluated or formulated.

How cant you figure out i simply missed out the point? ?per player? ? its called a typo. im not going to bother with the rest of your post. i think u continue to ramble & mock over a simple typing error that an intelligent person could understand was a mistake.

again you have little to contribute worthwhile but thanks for trying

Honestly, I think you missed her point. Hands played per hour per player, only tells you how fast the table is playing, not how fast the individual is playing. I could play five tables at once, and whether I act fast or slow, my hands played per hour would be high. Same thing if I was playing at bingo table. Since these seem to be the players you want to exclude from your tables, you might want to think of a better rating system.

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Hey guys, I think I started most of this confusion and it seems to have turned into a cat fight!

I’m really sorry about that. I thought I was helping @DogsOfWar explain but it seems that we all understand the proposal in different ways on different days. I think that includes Dogs. It’s certainly obvious that I helped in some ways and hurt in other ways.

For the sake of peace and my own sanity it’s time I bought out. I’ll continue to read, occasionally, but I’m unlikely to contribute further.

@DogsOfWar, I appreciate the kind comments you’ve made regarding my contributions. It is certainly not your fault nor could I lay blame on any other individual.

If nothing else I have the proud pleasure of coining the acronym ATTP - may it live forever :slight_smile:

Regards,
TA

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" Rules are meant to be broken though." Some people think the rules only apply to others.

@bahia7 thanks for your input

No its not that im missing her point its that sassy clearly 1 either hasnt read much of the old post or has very limited understanding of what @theanalyst01 & myself have been proposing & discussing 2 objects to everything that has been proposed 3 doesnt understand the point/theme of the thread & continuously goes way off subject.

Ive explained things many times but she fails to understand & continues to go on about points that have already been resolved. The title is very simple "Slow Players & Tables for Faster players. Sassy reads it “fast tables for fast players”. She talks about people being excluded or discriminated against. If you read and understand the point/theme of this post it discriminates less than your bankroll & the different stakes for RING, SnGs, MTT games.

Its pointless & exhausting continuously explaining things to sassy when she has very little suggestions, constructive criticism or intelligent input. As stated im not wasting my time reading/responding to the entire post, especially if she doesnt bother reading mine. Ive already thanked her for her input and told her previously i dont want to discuss anything further with her.

If you read old posts here @theanalyst01 coined the term ATTP: average time to play hand. It was a simple concept & easy to understand individual player rating, much like how many chips a player has or player rank. That being understood means the propoesed 1. & 2. were both different ways to calculate & represent ATTP as a figure. Again thats for an individual player not table.

Anyone reading the old posts, especially about ATTP should fairly easily be able to understand the calculations need to be done for the player not table.

The tables already have H/hr for ring tables calculated & displayed by RP. I can easily sit at a table & after a few seconds or minutes tell if the tables general speed & players general speed: very fast, fast, normal, slow, very slow. Why is it so hard to believe we could easily devise a system to accurately rate/score players speed or more importantly slowness.

Thanks again for your input & to everyone else, especially @theanalyst01. This thread was purely 99.9% for interests sake and i 99.9% guarantee we would never see these tables on RP. I agree with @theanalyst01 that this thread has turned into a cat fight thats a complete waste of time & effort.

To all,
Please if you have some meaningful, intelligent, constructive criticism, suggestions, ideas, feedback that’s related to the thread/theme then leave a comment. I will probably ignore all off topic, unrelated ramblings & troll like comments.

Thanks,
Dogs

Unrelated but i was playing 2 tables, stakes 50/100, 4 player tables. I gave a player the Zzzzzzzzzzzz or asked them to play faster.
He responded: “sorry im mutitable etc.”
I responded: “yes me too. you dont need to play that slow tho”

i checked his profile immediately & he was only playing 1 table. Maybe he quit other table, but i think he was jus making excuses. we had friendly chat, he added me & ive never seen him play 2 tables, only ever 1.

point is i regularly play 2 tables faster & much more profitably that a large portion of players and the majority are only playing 1 table.

A very simple way to overcome slow play is to reduce the time allowed to make your move. I’m not sure how long it is at the moment but it feels like hours sometimes. I reckon 8 to 10 seconds is more than adequate. It doesnt have to be every table. Those annoying people that like to stretch it out can all play together & get through 15 games an hour if they like while the rest of us cxan play at a much more acceptable speed

There are players you run the clock every turn and sit on two tables at the same time and just kill the game…Whats worse is when he has the nuts calls instantly…So truly no plausable reason why he cant play at the average rate the rest of the table are playing…It’s very apparent that the player is running the clock every turn with intent.Moreover on his turn simply disappears from the table and comes back then disappears again…
Think this is very poor decorum…i did complain to support about this.
Doing this on two tables is very annoying…
I do feel we dont need to change the speed clock but simply penalise them based on what the management thinks would be the right kind of ‘punishment’'for these kind of players knowing that its done with ‘‘intent’’.
Also the point of saying -legit excuse shouldnt arise as if you cant cope with multiple tables,one shouldnt play them with due respect to other players on those tables…
i totally agree it kills the game…as many players dont play for hours sometimes…hypothetically,if one has to base a table with just one slow player hes probably being dealt 40% less hands than he should be actually being dealt…taking a time clock of an hour of play.
i actually leave the table when such a player sits at the table.

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@jazzbythebay Thanks for posting. A lot of what you say adds credence to what i have been trying to emphasise and the entire point of this thread.

Slow Players that are significantly slower than the players at the table or the average player. Players that are obviously, deliberately & with intent running the clock every turn to be annoying aKa trolling. Ive had to explain this too many times to a few slow people in this post that dont seem to get it but as the poker saying goes: “If you can’t spot the slow sucker at the table, then your the slow sucker at this table!”

What i find most frustrating & annoying is when one of these player joins a table im doing very well on. If i have 3 or 4 times the buy in after felting a few players & winning a lot chips I dont want to leave just bc slow poke troll has turned up. As you said it totally kills the game.

Yes i have seen that strange disappear & reappear which restarts the clock again etc. Always thought it was probably a RP glitch but also was suspicious of the player messing with their connection in some way to deliberately “produce” this glitch. I know players do this kind of stuff in online gaming like FPS - first person shooters to gain an advantage aKa cheating.

Also in online gaming PC, players that experience bad lag that disrupts the game & play are penalised. As a penalty i think RP should warn them & after a warning ban them for a short period of day/s. Banning offence: 1st=1d, 2nd=3d, 3rd 7d. Also maybe add a BB big blind forced penalty chip for known offenders repeatedly playing slowly on a table much like the dead blind. I wont dive into how RP should systematically judge slow players - though its fairly easy for us intelligent humans that aren’t suckers.

Personally im not so keen on a penalty system but more interested in a “reward system” however any rules/guidelines that encourage slow players to play faster & discourage slow playing are welcome.

RE legit excusses:
I 100% agree with poker etiquette & being respectful of other players. If i experience bad lag on a table ill leave after a few hands bc it rarely gets any better: a) bc its annoying for me but b) bc its surely at least a little annoying for everyone else. Most people dont care about other people.

This problem I personally think is:
Some players don’t care about other people; playing slowly wasting time etc. Some players are too slow to recognise the problem. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a solution.

This has been mentioned many times in this thread and elsewhere. Keep in mind the issue is not slow play but slow players.

Reducing the time limit - which is already short @ 20secs normal & 10secs turbo - simply increases the element of bingo & luck.

I’ve played on other poker sites & apps that had very short timers & I could tell were pushing/encouraging players to gamble more. Some apps even had gambling aspects like casinos that as we know the house always wins.

Good players often need more than 10sec when making a big decision.

Dogs,
What happens when there are (2) Chris Furgusons on every table ???
Will you ask for a clock every hand ??
How about Mike Matasaou, is this where you just mute the chat ?

I’m not saying the rules are good or bad, nor the format, or
how long the timer is…what I am saying is that using the rules
to your advantage isn’t against really punishable or wrong.

Dogs, 1 of your examples is, ppl that cant handle 4 tables, shouldn’t
play 4 tables out of respect for others. What goes un-noticed is that
if its 4 full tables of “fast players”, that player you think can’t handle
4 tables, does just fine and lags noone.

If I sit down at a NL table, and someone goes all in preflop 20 times
in a row… I might give them a little crap, I might not like it, it might
cheese me off a little too… but @ the end of the day, I sat down for
NL poker, I can’t object to someone who bets thier limit ( all in ).

Most people forget, even playing 1 table… ppl multitask and say
watch or listen to the TV too… so when they’re attn wanders, and
they don’t know its thier turn, because there is no audible tone…
they prolly only hear the “you have 3 sec left” tone and scramble
to place thier bet…

I have played on sites with TimeBanks… ppl there still used them
to thier maximum, so even that won’t solve what to me isn’t a
problem to begin with… a 10sec timer is a 10sec timer no different
than NL is NL… Once you involve the “thought police” for subjective
decisions, usually more ppl not less, will be unhappy.
Sassy

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Sassy as far you naming the Pros who play for money should not be considered for discussion.
Playing with big money and play chips a complete different kettle of fish…

But you are right if anyone can handle 4 tables and play to the table speed why not,no issue with that.
I know a lot of players who multi task while playing and they play on par with the others…and absolutely spot on the rest of your points but what i think what Dog is saying is more relevant to what i posted unless im wrong…

My point in this entire topic is focussed on players who play slow ‘WITH INTENT’’…
Yes i agree that if you play to the time clock you are very much within the rules of the game here.but its a case of courtesy and fair decorum of the game to play on par with the other players…we all lag on 1/3 hands for any tourney we play out of say 30/50 hands which is fine and i dont think its even an issue to consider…

Just for the record as far as World Series Poker is considered below is thier time clock rule-

"Any participant intentionally stalling the progress of the game or unnecessarily calling the clock
will incur a penalty in accordance"

based on these guidelines,we we follow most of the poker rules based on the Real money tournaments hence im just stating the above.
This is exactly what i posted earlier that the management needs to dish out the punishment they deem fit based on the time clock the players use based on intent and not based on because they can.

Thanks @jazzbythebay

100% agree especially if its not making any valid or relevant points to the OP: Slow Players & Tables for Faster Players.

Your not wrong. I mostly agreed to everything in your OP.

This was the entire point or “topic” of this Thread: Slow Players & Tables for Faster Players. aKa trolls & players that are significantly slower than the pace of the table.

I agree with this but apparently some players dont, so the following rule had to be introduced to enforce players to be “courteous” & ""play fairly & uphold “poker etiquette”.

Thanks for providing some relevant & accurate info.

OK here is my two cents worth. Players who want to play fast want to lose fast. I play for fun and very rarely run out the clock just to do so. But here is a stark truth. New layout does not help. It is a data sucker, and the main reason lots of players are slow, is their connection issues. Why in the world would I have to tell the table TWICE!!! that I want to fold. Why in the world would I have to hit more than one button to leave??? Why do the check boxes make it look like the checkmark is being made by hand??? why do they waste table space with two full cards?? All of this new chit just slows play, uses up internet data and pisses off the rest of the table. Some folks like me have “unlimited” data, which is NOT unlimited.

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@timbershot Thanks for your input.

While Im sure they dont “want” to lose fast they certainly seem willing to, and are often bingo players or players happy to throw their chips away fast & without thinking. Agreed.

Keep in mind the title of this thread: Slow Players & Tables for Faster Players. I dont want to play fast, I want to avoid unnecessarily slow games & slow players. This thread isnt about playing/finding fast games of poker or stipulating that the average player should be playing faster. Most of the time I find good paced 4 or 6 player games which are often IMO much better paced than the slower 9 player tables - for obvious reasons.

Totally agree with your thoughts on new tables. The new tables have a totally different feel & I feel they are much more difficult to play as fast as the previous or old tables. This is evident I think by looking at the table stats, hands played per (H/hr). The higher the stakes you go the faster the H/hr or the faster the “players” generally play at that stakes. I have noticed that the HIGH stakes games H/hr is currently rather poor/low in comparison to what the figures were before the new tables were implemented on all ring games. HIGH stakes was previously surprisingly & significantly faster than MED stakes on average. The reason I think is these new tables “play” or are “played” much slower.

Whilst the new tables seem to be problematic with regards to connectivity & lag it is not the reason players are playing slow & wasting time deliberately & with intent to disrupt play.

@timbershot the issue of connectivity & lag is a very important one RE the new tables. Please post your issues & concerns in a more relevant post & hopefully other players will comment, support & discuss this important issue.

Thanks again for your input.

the 64,000 dollar question is :
whom decides, and how do they decide intent of the player’s actions ?
Sounds like the thought police to me, without direct proof of intent.

No matter if its 1 table or 6 tables, when players don’t know its thier turn, thier 1st warning is the dread’d “you have 3 sec to act” ding.

As you learn poker, you start making automatic decisions… therefore its logical that the lower the stakes, the longer on average the players take to act.

I have found the beta tables more laggy, and less functional, this directly effects the speed of players’s actions. While players adjust to the beta tables, play also is slower.

Before Im accused of beating a dead horse, Why a player seems to be playing slow, has not been fully explored here… nor has the ways someone must subjectively determine intent of players’s actions. Yes thread topic is Slow Players & Tables for Faster Players, so I am only addressing the 1st part “Slow players”.
Sassy

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Thanks all for contributing.

I will post a longer & more in depth boring post later, but for now… Slow Players has been an issue/problem in WSOP & many other multi-million dollar sports worldwide. The authorities, regulators, organisers have implemented rules to solve this issue/problem with penalties to reduce its unwanted outcome. Its not rocket science. The problem/issue is easily understood by most intelligent fans/professionals & solved with rules & penalties. ABC 123.

Its really very simple. Pick a sport like Tennis & an average intelligent fan could identify Slow Players. The slowest well known players in Tennis are actually some of the best. Great players in fact. These players take much, much, much longer than most other players (in between points). Do they waste time with intent to disrupt play? Probably not. Do they gain an unfair advantage by taking longer? No. Does that mean they are entitled to take as long as they like? I don’t think so, & even fans don’t think so, even the sport (authorities, regulators, organisers) don’t think so. RESULT: rules & penalties to reduce time wasted by Slow Players.

The understanding is simple. The need for rules isn’t rocket science.

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Nadal !!! lollllll