The new system where you see in the Replay what somebody else had after you fold is just nonsense. Don’t get me wrong, I love it because I can immediately tell if somebody bluffed, and it will greatly help players who pay attention to it. But it is a complete departure from actual poker. If you fold, you can immediately see your opponent’s holdings and use that information going forward.
I suppose it could force players to balance their frequencies because I can check and see if you only bet when you have it or if you bluff too much. But it’s just not poker. A big part of poker is having to pay to continue if you want to see what the other player is holding.
I agree 100%. I would have to invent a new obscenity to describe how horrible this new feature is. It totally destroys the game.
Yea this is WRONG !!! I just went back and looked at a bunch of hands and I get to see (and therefore my opponent) gets to see for FREE my Holdings … I can see at showdown if I call the bet then I should get to see B/C I PAID for IT …
Are you able to see the dead cards immediately after the hand ends? If so, this is something I’d get rid of ASAP. You get to see dead cards on some cash sites through hand reviews but not immediately. Certainly not while still playing. IMO, its a great feature to have for analyzing your play off-table but should never be available in real time. Perhaps this feature should be shelved and re-released if/when the site allows for hands to be exported?
on flop see at least 8 poss hands then odds
Yeah, immediately. I can just check the replay and see the winning hand for any hand I was involved in. I’m assuming involved means put in chips voluntarily, but not sure how it works. Either way, it is a massive advantage to watch the hands as you play. I’ve already learned that specific people are bluffing more than I expected.
I have learned what I already knew – I know when to fold 'em.
I would say that a delay (at least 24 hours) in showing the hands might be an idea here, although I still don’t care for it. The idea is similar to how the pros use game tape on their opponents from live broadcasts to prepare. The real time display, however, is not a good thing, and should be discontinued immediately.
The good bluffers will adjust. This “show” feature could be dangerous for people who will use it to make bad assumptions. I don’t mind losing on a bluff if it will increase the chances of getting called when I have it. It’s a chess game - sacrifice a pawn on one hand to checkmate (stack) your opponent on another.
I’m not too sure about all this clutching of pearls
My current stats are that I fold 74% of hands, win without showdown 63% of the time and win 37% of the hands that get to showdown. I know my win at showdown rate is pathetic - I blame alcohol lol -but even so, that leaves a really small number of hands played that are available to the players at my table to analyse.
As @AKFolds implies, this is beneficial more than harmful in my opinion - anybody who uses my showdown hands, win or lose, to “read” my range will soon “learn” that my entire playing range is 88+, A2s+, suited broadways and, occasionally, 98s+ !
Please just assume that is my entire range and come sit next to me!
So, having said that, and reading what the much better players have said, I don’t know what I don’t understand about this change.
If I call on the river then I am “paying” to see what my opponent has and vice versa. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. There may be some room to debate the “right” of the other players to see my hole cards but I don’t see anything unreasonable about the players involved in the showdown seeing what the other person/people have.
I can’t see any data mining opportunity here because viewing the hole cards is restricted to players who “were involved in the hand” (whatever that means!). Nobody who has participated in this discussion (so far), for example, can see any of my losing hands.
So, would some kind person please explain why this change is so bad?
If the table folds to a better’s action pre-flop or any other street, the better’s hole cards are always revealed. This provides real-time information about opening ranges and bluff frequencies, which is very valuable information. It basically exposes your tendencies, and that is why it is bad.
On another note, 37% is not a bad number. It is a proportion of your total wins, not how often you win at showdown. It means that, of all the hands you have won, two-thirds of the time you have won before the river. This is a good stat, in my opinion. Having a lot of showdown wins would mean that you are giving your opponents too many opportunities to see cards.
One of the lesser known poker rules is that a player calling a bet, and winning, can ask to see the hole cards of the player that placed the bet before the hands are mucked.
thanks @AKFolds, my apologies … i didn’t see the extent of the problem because the replayer hasn’t been updated for the opera browser!
i am very happy to share the outrage now … it is totally ridiculous and i’m not convinced that even the good bluffers can overcome such a huge disadvantage!
it wouldn’t take more than 3 or 4 sessions with the same opponent and you would have a fairly strong idea of his/her range. That is not poker as @JoeDirk said … why don’t we just play face up from the start and forget about this silly “hole cards” idea!!!
Why do sites always fix what’s not broken then don’t listen to user feedback??
That has always been the case, if you call a bet and win you get to see the bettor’s cards. This is different; if you fold you still get to see the bettor’s cards.
Thanks to you all for bringing this to our attention. You’re absolutely right – this has not been implemented correctly. We have escalated this to our tech team as a high priority fix. The change we made should only allow you to see mucked cards at showdown, not if everyone folds.
Can we be clear that the concept is that IF a hand goes to showdown then the hole cards of ONLY the participants in the showdown will be able to be viewed?
That is, mucked hands are NEVER retrieved from the discard pile?
The only mucked cards that will be shown are the ones that get to showdown. No other mucks or folds will be displayed. Hopefully that makes sense!