250/500 6max
effective stacks 59M (118 bb)
Fun hand all in on the flop, what do you guys think about how all the chips went in?
Opinions from CO’s perspective? UTG (59M) CO (225M) BB (180M)
UTG limp, HJ limp, CO Th9h limp, BTN limp, SB completes, BB raises 4M, UTG calls, CO calls
Flop (13.5M) Td7h5h… BB x, UTG 4M, CO raises 14.7M, BB fold, UTG 3! to 30M with 25M behind, CO raises all in, UTG calls and is all in.
Can you post the actual hand? It would be nice to know the outcome.
I don’t get all the limping in – at the 500K BB level, I would have expected much less of this. I mean, if a player is willing to call a raise, why aren’t they willing to open with a bet? This is especially the case with the UTG and CO positions, who are willing to call a 8x raise, but can’t bring themselves to bet in the first place. If the UTG and CO are that strong pre-flop, why the limping in? And why not make a 3-bet instead of a flat call?
On the flop, it is really difficult for me to read what anybody has. But the CO’s raise (about 85% of the pot) on the flop suggests strength and possibly an attempt to block the flush draw. So I would guess the CO player was holding something like an A10 suited (hearts?) or hit a set on the flop. It’s also possible the CO had pocket Jacks, which some people like to play softly pre-flop.
I have an even less clear idea what the UTG is doing, and would need to know what kind of player they are to even speculate. Are they limping in with a big pair? Did they make a set? I just don’t know, but I doubt it’s a bluff, and have to assume strength.
Set over set is the only thing that even remotely makes sense to me.
I’ll post the replay after some discussion.
The CO hand is posted in the OP… Th9h
I agree the CO has a strong range, it’s very difficult for him to be bluffing here. Probably should be combo draws minimum and some sets and two pair.
My bad, maybe it’s not posted clearly enough, CO’s hand is Th9h.
If UTG is even remotely decent he limp/called 55 or 77. If he is a bit spazzy he can have some nut flush draws with 2 overcards like AhJh. The 3! size (its terrible - only legit size available is all-in) should only be value as he is pricing in everything. CO is making a very common mistake with TP+ flush draw and overplaying the hand. In position, this is a call on the flop, not a raise. He’s isolating himself against a range he is in terrible shape against. At best he’s flipping with the overcards + flush draw and he’s a 3:7 dog vs sets.
100% nailed it. I had forgotten who UTG was and thought it was a different player is the reason for withdrawal of the previous comment. I was hoping to get some analytical discussion concerning the CO’s play from some of the less nuanced players in the forums, however it’s been a few days and the post hasn’t gotten much traffic. I’ll post the hand.
What’s your opinion on CO over calling T9s after bb raises to 8x. I don’t really like it. I think being 350 bb’s deep he’s not going realize enough equity to justify it and will be in some pretty horrific RIO spots when all the money goes in vs bb.
I don’t understand either the UTG’s or CO’s call of the 8x raise. The CO saw the BB raise and the UTG call the bet, yet still decides to call. In that situation, you have to assume that the BB or UTG has a stronger hand than 10/9 suited, and a call here is nothing but speculation.
The CO’s hand is actually very playable in that position, but I don’t understand why the player didn’t lead out with a bet. Betting here gives you a good chance of getting the BTN to fold (and probably the blinds as well), effectively turning the CO position into the button after the flop.
The UTG has four other players to act afterward, and has a weak pair. Basically, the player needs to hit a set to have a chance. It was a lucky win.
Are you willing to reveal your hole cards? The 8x raise was a good play and it should have been enough to get the table to fold their equity. This is the hard part of playing with free chips – your opponents have little real incentive to fold.
Perhaps I give high ranked players too much credit and I have made mistakes post-flop because of it. For example, if I was playing with KK or QQ in this situation, I would probably have lost my stack. I say too much credit because I don’t expect a high ranked player to limp in with pocket sevens UTG and then flat call a large raise. But that’s my mistake, not their’s.
I have learned that players around here rarely bluff. Many are willing to flat call, but few are willing to bet without a made hand.
Thanks for posting this hand.
I may not be the best person to answer questions like this. As has been noted in other threads, much of my analysis is geared towards technically sound play vs fairly solid players. The level of exploitation in the games played here isn’t something I deal with or think about all that often. I wish players like @Idi0tpLaYer were still active because they could give dead-on accurate assessments of hands like this from the maximally exploitative perspective.
I don’t mind the limp behind in a zero-rake environment and I don’t mind calling the raise, even though it is a fairly large one. He’s in position and deep enough vs both players to splash around with a hand like this (needing 20:1 to make it a profitable call, he’s deep enough). So, preflop I can get behind CO’s actions in a general sense.
I agree that T9s specifically has issues in 3! pots but this isn’t one. I don’t know your squeezing range and how many suited connectors/Ax you have in it. Even if you had a lot of them (JTs+, A3-5, AT+), that isn’t a ton of combos. I wouldn’t be overly concerned with having a dominated flush but it would be part of my thought process postflop. UTG could also have some random suited stuff but probably only JTs,wheel aces and AT (if he isn’t opening that). I’d think everything stronger would be an open but ranging people I don’t know isn’t easy.
My problem with calling this specific hand, even in position and deep enough, comes from how CO played it. If you are capable of playing drawing hands properly, they can be very profitable. If you are going to spaz out with TP no kicker and a weak draw, then you probably shouldn’t be playing hands like this in the first place. As it turned out, it only cost him 118bb but if you were the one that flopped a set or better flush draw (or x’d AA/KK on flop), this play could have cost CO 350bb. There is no better way to get crushed than by playing deep stacked vs better players than you are.
There are many things that don’t make a ton of sense from a purely technical standpoint but that happen all the time as exploits. In general, this player pool is passive and pays off. Therefore set mining is more profitable than it should be. This hand is a perfect example of that. The limp/call at 118bb effective is still profitable because the implied odds are more than sufficient.
People want to see flops as cheaply as possible and then get paid off when they make monster hands. So long as the table is allowing both to happen, this isn’t a bad strategy. We don’t get to play the players we want or expect - we play the players we actually get at our tables. Being willing to exploit their tendencies, even if it requires “ugly poker”, is the rational thing to do.
I agree with this in general and in this specific case I agree 1000%. If the players behind you are weak, then its fine to limp because you aren’t going to get tortured for it. If I see @dayman (or another good player) left to act, I want him out of the hand. It also makes sense to iso-raise so you clear out equity from all the 9x and Tx hands that dominate you. Then you can play your pairs strongly. If you limp, you haven’t cleared out all the J9o+, JTo+ and misc. garbage that kills your pairs. Leaving in the hands that dominate you and playing your weak TP this strongly is a recipe for disaster.
Yes, I didn’t even consider that my whole cards weren’t shown… I had AdKd
This reply gets 5 GOLD STARS! Thanks bud.