I was curious how others construct their ranges by position with the hopes of seeing how my ranges differ and see some comparisons. Would anyone like to share?
Edit:
I play multi table tournaments and these ranges are for Buy-in15K, MTT, 5,000 starting chip stack, Blinds starting at 10/20 (~250BB’s).
I’ll try to develop 4 different ranges for:
Early position (UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2)
Middle position (LowJack, High Jack)
Late position (Cutoff, Button)
SB / BB (category of their own)
and stages of the tournament (beginning, middle late), ss well as stack sizes… man thats a lot of charts!
I’ll do 3 different stack sizes:
Small 10-15 BB or less,
Medium 100 BB’s (would this be medium???)
Large 200 or more BB’s.
The reason Im doing this is to be forced to develop and think about ranges (most importantly try and use them) and to see how I fair against others (if willing to share) and who knows maybe it will help someone else in the process.
Early position (UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2)
Beginning / Middle / Late stages of tournament with Medium and Large stack sizes
These are for 10-handed cash games and standard (~100BB) stacks? If so, you may wish to consider breaking out the middle positions with their own range.
You have opened a can of worms here my friend Another player here and I were just going over how to construct ranges by position for various formats and how we’d adjust them for playing certain player populations. Creating the opening ranges, the limp-behind ranges and then the 3 and 4 bet ranges for just 1 format is a large task. So, before getting deep in the weeds, can you narrow it down to a particular format 1st? Are you looking to create ranges for your LAPC satellites or the rings here or something else?
The original thought was to better my play and see where I am as a MTT player (right now I believe I have a tremendous amount to learn and haven’t scratched the surface) but most of all to get better. I don’t really play ring games so MTT are what Im looking for. This would be for online play here at replay.
Would it be a mistake to try and take what I learn here for this format into a live play arena? I don’t plan on using this at the LAPC (I don’t think Id have time to develop, kind of going to go with the limited knowledge I have).
RUahead,
Pick a regional you can play most days… and play it as much as possible for a few months straight. That alone should sharpen your game… 5k or 15k doesn’t really matter. Also, yes as crazy as it sounds there are some things that can be honed here, that do help in Live play, but not many.
Warlock,
“certain player populations” (wha-chu-talkn-bout-willis), I try to look @ ranges, till I see players not only pushing crap to begin with, but call’n with complete crap on the end. To me “range” is almost all on who it is, then a bit on which table they are on (ring wise)… and MTT same but a bit on chipstack not on table… its still 85% who it is.
@Sassy_Sarah sure has been a while hope things are going well for you appreciate the feedback and want to wish u a very Merry Christmas as well I’d like to wish everyone here on the forums an absolutely fantastic holiday season!
We just talk via PM but this thread would be a nice place to have more open conversations. If I can contribute anything I certainly will but I would be really interested in seeing what other players think, especially the better MTT players. I’ve seen range charts from several ring players but very few from MTT or SnG players.
Yes, 1st format then populations and then specific players. Formats you know way in advance because you select your games. Populations you get to know over time and then specific players you adjust for at the table. As an example, would you agree that opening ranges for a 2K/4K ring game here should be different from a maniac 10NL online cash game? In the former, a 3-bet tends to be QQ+ and a 4-bet means AA. In the latter the only thing you can divine from a 4-bet is that someone had already 3-bet. You simply cannot have the same ranges for these 2 very different player pools.
Agree, format, populations then players. The latter being unpredictable unless you have played at a table with them previously or you adjust accordingly then to that player as you go.
You mention populations, so I’ll stay on point for a sec… I disagree that a 2k/4k table and a 50/100 table necessarilly have different ranges… especially if the person opening bought onto the table for exactly the same % of thier bankroll. Which makes a good case for “raw rank” being hidden, and even rank itself, if its just a sole measure of bankroll.
Since I ask’d, lets take me… would you expect drastic differences in my play depending if I have 10m and buyin for the max 200k on a table… versus having 200k and buyin the max 4k on another level table ??? OR would expect me to play differently “possibly” if I have that 10m and buyin the max 2m on a table ???
Add to the mix Warlock, “creepy” tables as I call them, where you can prolly thro normal ranges out the window 1/2 the time. ( creepy tables - tables where the same 5-6 ppl play on, and 3-4 “fish” seats end up being open ).
I’ve sat in on some elite tables, and they almost play as med tables, just the bankrolls of the players and the blinds are staggering.
So I guess I see many “populations” as you call them, but in far different ways … so I guess I was just asking for you to be more specific. To me there are as many different populations as thier are players, but even basic catagories… I see tons of those.
In a casino, the majority of players are there to turn a profit, and you can’t see thier pocketbook. Here, alot more players claim to be playing to have fun and you know thier bankroll … The clash of just those 2 simple objectives, will cause too much variance to accurately compute realistic opening hand ranges, won’t they ???
I believe we are talking about separate concepts and issues. Therefore I’ll just reiterate my position that ranges need to be tailored to suit the format, the player and the general populations.
Seriously? I very much doubt even 10% of the players at the 1/2 games on any given weekend are there for anything other than a good time. Most have no idea what they are doing at all and some are so drunk that they won’t remember whatever it is they did do. Would you suggest taking the same strategies and ranges to these tables as you would to the games in the high-stakes rooms? Of course not. Different populations.
To revisit this if you are interested, I’d suggest you go to pokerstrategy and download the free equilab program. The PokerStrategy.com Equilab
Its a very good tool and has some nice features, including an equity trainer. It also has a host of default ranges for you to go over. For early stage MTT ranges, you can use a full-ring default range biased towards the tight end. For EP, it would be something like this: 77+, AQs+, AKo (yes, you are being pretty inactive from EP)
As to your charts - my suggestion would be to tighten up the ranges and get all thoughts of open-limping out of your head. For all positions, construct ranges where your only decision as 1st to act is to raise or fold. You will construct separate ranges for calling/3-betting when someone else has already entered the pot.
Hope you are having good luck so far in 2018. Have those satellite tourneys started yet?
Equilab I’ll be downloading it tonight, very cool that it has a trainer (something I definitely need).
The satellites for the kickoff event actually start today but I had to play in the rain all day today soggy socks and a whole lot of joy lol but seriously Thursday afternoon and Friday night its game on (with aggression :)) I’ll share the outcome (good or bad).
I’ll be working on those ranges as well (great advice), I need to make the time to study!!!
Quick screen shot of my first training quiz (so cool I got this bad boy to work on mac)
Very cool that you had time to play with this already. You only posted 10 hands but the thing that pops out most to me from this small sample comes from the hands where your estimates deviated most from actual. In all 3 examples where you were off by >50%, it was to the high side, meaning you overestimated your equity. If this persists over several more quizzes, then you just identified a giant leak in your game pretty quickly. If you are overestimating your equity with 1 or 2 overcards, you are probably losing more than you should be in these spots (likely by over-calling rather than folding or bluffing). It looks like you could be over-valuing the equity of the really weak draws in these hands as well. Recognizing that and adjusting for it should yield significant improvements to your results.
I look forward to hearing how you do in those satellites. LMK if you want to keep going over things or if you want to wait until after these live events are over. Good luck!
I would definitely like to keep going over things I’ll be back after the weekend.
Do you know how equity is calculated? I’ve heard that you can count the outs you have after the flop then multiply by 4 and 2 after the turn, if > than 8 you would minus 8. I know this is to make the math simpler but after the small percentage of hands quizzed the math definitely doesn’t add up? Any idea how I would break it down? The guesses I made above were an effort to give the best guess not performing any math (not even the 4/2 rule) just to see how I would do (and as you stated does give great insights to possible leaks). After the weekend I do intend to do an hour of quizzes a day for muscle memory visually (which would probably work best for me) though at least knowing how its calculated (though I’ll forget) would be cool.
And you da man! appreciate all the help… (I’ll pay it forward).
@Marc978 Glad you are on board I’m loving it as well (mind blown) but @Craig_Anthony is in trouble he’s got 2 kool kidz studying… here comes trouble Craig! See you at the tables buddy.
Another player here and I were just going over how to construct ranges by position for various formats and how we’d adjust them for playing certain player populations. Creating the opening ranges, the limp-behind ranges and then the 3 and 4 bet ranges for just 1 format is a large task. So, before getting deep in the weeds, can you narrow it down to a particular format 1st? Are you looking to create ranges for your LAPC satellites or the rings here or something else?
as well I’d like to wish everyone here on the forums an absolutely fantastic holiday season!
I’ll be back after the weekend.
See you at the tables buddy.
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