Question: Why do players limp monster hands on extremely limp happy, passive tables?

Poker Strategy
1

Hi all. I have been running into a problem.

On the most limp happy passive tables where no one raises, etc, where usually players are usually limping garbage, when I have a good image, I am either raise squeeze 5,6,7,8,9 bb to All in, depending on stack size, stage of tourny, position, depending on situation with T9 suited, T8 suited, J9 suited, JT suited, Q9 suited, QT suited, QJ suited, K9 suited, KT suited, A4 suited, A5 suited, A6 suited, A7 suited, A8 suited, A9, AT.

I dont do that a lot, but when I do, do that, Im getting trapped, busted out a lot, at least lately, by Donks Donk limp trapping AJ suited, AQ suited, AK, JJ to AA, KQ suited, then limp calling my tight image squeeze, shove, an or all in.

I’m wondering why they do that. Perhaps if I understand why they do that so much, perhaps I will squeeze, shove, ALL in, even more less often to try to steal limps.

If super loose, hyper aggressive players, then I limp monsters, as I expect to be raised preflop. And I expect other players to do the same, so thats why I dont squeeze, shove, steal, when there are super loose, hyper aggressive players, because I know that other players are trying to limp trap like I would be doing in that kind of dynamics.

But if the table is limp happy passive, I am not expecting monsters to be limp trapped, because it would be so stupid to do, especially for the flop vulnerable semi premium hands like 99, TT, JJ, QQ, AQ suited, AK. Those are hands that have a great chance to have good results with, and by limping them on a limp happy passive table, there is a extremely good chance that leaving money at the table, get outflopped, loose, end up having top pair or 2 pair beat by a set, straight, flush, 2 pair, etc, and of not having somebody raise preflop, and of not having someone overplay their marginal hand postflop. So when Donk limp trap monster hand on limp happy passive table, there is a LOT of RISK, abd extremely little, if any reward possibility.

The chances that me or someone else will get the right hand, stack size, situation, etc, to pay off their limp trap, is ABOUT 1,2,3% chance, for them to have their monster hand limp bailed out.

Usually, they are losing, and I am losing a lot when they do that, and its a lose, lose for both me, them, when, if they do that.

I have adjusted some, by not squeezing, shoving to steal, when, if they limp under gun, etc, as I am beginning to assume that they will stupidly limp trap a monster early position on a limp happy passive table.

But I still struggle with this.

So maybe it would help if I understood better why they stupidly limp trap monsters on limp happy passive tables.

I figure that some of it has to be reasons like:

Maybe they dont know how to play AQ suited, so they limp it, or their afraid to raise AQ suited, QQ, etc, because their afraid of getting outflopped, losing more chips, etc. Maybe they are NITS and they are afraid that if they raise, everyone will fold all the time, and so limp to get action, not realizing how risky doing that is on a limp happy passive table is.

Any suggestions on how I can avoid this problem while still being able to squeeze, shove steal occasionally, etc?

Also maybe its just Variance or Bad luck lately.

1 Like
2

Because it is a fun free site:)…A tad different then cash games but u get used to it-gl my friend…

3 Likes
3

@Asuronetorius

I think you’ve answered your own question, especially if you’re always aggressive. This may be a Free chip site but players know when someone bluffs, especially when they do it a lot.

2 Likes
4

The loose/aggressive players here can be beat, but it takes a ton of patience. Real world play, for real $, is nothing like this. Those people are developing very bad habits. In a real game, for cash, you would never see this many people seeing a flop. In real play, position is extremely important. In the cut-off and small or big blind position is everything.

That said, I often play a certain amount of crap hands, to mix up my play and not become easily predictable.

Some of these players would benefit from switching from loose/aggressive to tight/aggressive.

2 Likes
5

I’m semi tight to between semi tight to semi moderate, and am semi selectively, semi careful, semi aggressive, and so I am not stealing limp ins a lot. If I was loose, aggressive, etc, then I would understand, but I am a positional player with a GOOD IMAGE, that mixes up balances range, that Cbets about 59 to 67% of time, and delay cbets sometimes, and bluffs, and semi bluffs about 8% to 16% to 25% of time, depending on situation, etc.

So if I shove a 18 bb stack on bb, with T9 suited, JT suited, QT suited, QJ suited, KT suited, KJ suited, 33, 44, 55, 66, A5 suited, A6 suited, A7 suited, etc, to squeeze, steal the limp ins, there is no reason for other players to limp monsters, on limp happy passive tables, as the chances that I will get one of the above marginal hands in the right spot, and then shove that marginal hand to scoop their limp ins, is about a 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%, 6% chance, so because of that, no reason on a limp happy passive tabke, no reason to limp monsters to try to trap anybody, as there is no super loose, hyper over aggressive player thats going to pay them off, and the only way they are going to be paid off, is if they get BUTLUCKY, and the 2% to 6% chance hits and I wake up with a marginal hand in right spot, and then shove that marginal hand to try to scoop limp ins.

Many times, I have seen Donks limp monsters on limp happy passive tables that I at, and nobody pays them off, and they end up in a 9 way limped in pot, and they get out flopped, and the board comes xx2 little cards, flopping 22 a set, and then they go busto with their limped in AA, etc.

If I or anyone else were hyper aggressive, etc, then I would most certainly expect them to limp monsters, and would not shove a marginal hand on sb to steal limp ins because of that.

If the table is linp happy passive, and nobody is raising, shoving, etc, then thats the perfect table to shove a marginal hand on SB, with a 18 bb stack to steal limp ins, because usually nobody is silly enough to donk limp a monster on such a table. And so if a Donk does limp a monster in such a bad spot, it totally catches me off guard, its totally unexpected, etc, if I occasionally steal limp ins in such a spot, and run into a Donk, donk linping a monster hand, in such a bad spot.

I explained this in my post above.

So when I asked why they the Donks Donk limp monster hands in such bad spots to do so, the reason is not to limp trap, as they are not likely to get their limp trap paid off in such a bad spot.

So the reason why they Donk limp monsters in such a bad spot, must be for some other reason.

Perhaps it is one of the things I named, like maybe they are scared they will get outflopped if they raise preflop, and then get called preflop, so maybe thats why they limp, that and other stuff, reasons, etc.

6

Umm Crootnik, I appreciate that your trying to answer a question, but your answering a question, or trying to answer a question I didnt ask.

I didnt ask why people are loose aggressive.

Limping monster hands on limp happy passive tables is not being loose aggressive.

I asked why people Donk limp monster hands on limp happy passive tables in such bad spots, where they are so unlikely to get their Donk limp of their monster hand in such a bad spot, paid off.

Thanks for trying to answer my question though, and thanks for the comment.

7

If it’s a passive table with lots of limping, you have to limp your strong hands too - at least most of the time. Not saying it’s a good strategy, but they will at least sometimes face a raise from a weaker hand. If they’re only raising their strongest hands, they should never get action from worse - but of course they will in practice, so this is only a small factor.
I suspect the real reason is that if you only raise a narrow range, your hand is extremely face up, and you’re easily exploitable post flop, even by fairly weak players. So they probably end up losing a ton of large pots when they open raise, and learn that it’s better to limp trap those hand. It’s the wrong lesson IMHO - they should learn to open the correct range instead - but limping everything is likely better than only raising your strongest hands, except against the most inexperience opponents.

2 Likes
8

I agree, suppose that its theoretically possible that they are doing what in bottom half of your answer post.

I disagree with the top half of your post.

And thats because I have seen limping monsters on limp happy passive tables, where nobody hardly ever raises preflop, gets them beat, losing a lot most of the time. Its just not profitable doing that long term. Maybe in the short term they butluck doing that, but long term, they are losing doing that long term.

But whether it sgould be done or not, they are doing it a lot at even the HIGHER STAKES, which means if I try to squeeze steal limps, even rarely, its to risky to get busted that way.

And if dont do that, then that hurts as well, so darned if I do, darned if I dont, all because of their donk limping, which causes them to lose long term.

I guess I have to tighten my squeezing range even slightly more, and tighten my squeeze frequency, semi, slightly even more, and dont hardly ever squeeze since, when, if they limp trap in on limp happy passive nobody raises preflop table, in UTG, etc, and only squeeze if they limp on limp happy passive nobody raises tables, if they limp in late position, SB, and if I have QJ suited, KT suited, KJ suited, KQ suited, AT suited, 55,66,77, etc, on cut off, button, SB, BB, and only if limps worth squeeze stealing, and only if I have a good image, etc, which means I’ll blind down, if I get down to 16 and under bb stack.

Their incessant Donk limp trapping in such bad spots, etc, is really, will really crimp my ability to do as well in MTT’s.

I’m already going thru a 27 tourny bad run, filled with most bad beats, and Donks, Donk limp trapping in, in worst spots and knocking me out, where I have only cashed, or won, about 3,4 out of the last about 27 tournaments.

Thanks DONKS, NOT.

9

Exactly, 90% of the players here ( and most on small cash sites ) play the same way and we get a read on how they play real fast-----Got to change up your play so ppl. do not read u so easy.

10

You continue to insist on making posts where the singular focus is I LOST BECAUSE DONKS.

I cannot take your posts seriously until you stop this.

“I lose because my opponents make too many mistakes” is a pretty funny sentence to utter aloud, isn’t it?

3 Likes
11

Anyway, I’ve had similar troubles: Dealing with Passive Players

For me, the answer has just been to take more notes on who plays this way, and exploit to an absurd degree. A recent example:

MTT, mid stages. I have AQo in MP and a decent stack of about 25bb. one of these meganits opens for 2x UTG. I flat instead of 3! because I think their range is extremely narrow, just premiums, basically.

Flop comes A-x-x rainbow and Villain leads 1bb. I call.
Turn is a brick; Villain leads 2bb. I call.
River I honestly don’t even remember but they bet 1/2 pot, I call, and lose to AK.

Normally I would have raised at approximately a dozen different points in this hand. Knowing how crazy top-heavy Villain’s range is, I took an absurdly passive line with a good-but-not-nutted hand and lost the minimum.

At some point it’s not their fault for playing “badly,” it’s our fault for not adjusting. Stop trying to make GTO plays against these guys. Their entire style is to underrep a strong hand and just call down. You won’t get folds when you’re “supposed” to; you’ll get looked up by QQ after betting all three streets on a wet runout. The weak-passives have learned this makes them money, because their weak-aggressive opponents make random bluffs and play way too many speculative draws.

Just play “best hand” mostly against these players. There are still a few spots where you can very profitably bluff, but you must be extremely selective. I usually wait for them to check a scary card post flop, indicating they are scared, rather than using my “image” to make preflop squeeze plays. In my experience that is much more reliable at the lower stakes.

12

Oh, you can also just start limping wider yourself and beating them postflop because they don’t have good board coverage, and you do. Play 6 7 offsuit from the button as an overlimp with 4 players already in. Win big when it flops low and lose 1bb when anything else flops. It’s pretty simple, honestly.

Conversely, if there are 3 limps and you pick up QQ, you can just shove. There’s a decent chance one of them is sitting on a hand like 66-JJ and will call, dominated 4:1.

There are many ways to exploit a configuration of the kind you describe. I think the problem is that the way you’re trying to do it is much higher variance, and your opponents aren’t really doing much to force you to take higher variance spots. So in a sense, you’re signing yourself up for more volatility for no good reason.

EDIT: Lol, I just played this hand a few seconds ago, after typing the above:

It Do Work

Note that 2 2 is a really bad call here, beating literally nothing, dominated by plenty of hands and flipping with literally everything else.

And this is at the 1M level!

Ditch the fancy squeeze plays and just focus on finding more spots where your range is ahead of theirs. When you think you have such a spot, pile the chips in. You will profit :smiley:

13

Its not like I am squeeze shoving, jamming, all inning a lot, etc.

Iin the past, and when, if players are not limp trapping monsters on such limp happy passive nobody raises tables, and if I am 8.5 bb stack to 15 bb stack to about 20 bb stack, to about 23 bb stack, and if its mid tourny to late tourny, and if on the button, cutoff, SB, BB, and if enough limp ins to make it worth it, and if I have very good image, and if I havent been doing it a lot, ALL COMBINED TOGETHER, then and only then do I do it.

Its extremely rare for all those things to happen at same time. Because of that its rare for me to do it.Despite that Donk limp trappers are still limp trapping on limp happy passive, nobody raises tables, that run into if squeeze, steal limps, which squeeze steals, rarely happens.

Its not high variance because 1. I dont do it that often. 2. As often as they donk limp trap, not every hand they limp are monsters, as some hands they limp are nonmonster hands. 3. And even if high variance, if dont do it, THEN BLIND DOWN TO 4,5,6 bb stack, IF ultimate card dead, and if not getting the situations, spots, marginal cards, positions, etc, to even bluff once, and because nothing hitting, everything going wrong, even tho playing right, ok, etc. My FIX to prevent 4,5,6,7 bb stacks in such situations, is that if stack is 8 to 15 to 20 to 23 bb, and all the lots of conditions are met, then squeeze jam steal limps.

If I play the way your saying to adapt by not squeeze stealing limps, then I will end up with 4,5,6,7,8 bb stacks, and it will be luck, whether I get GOOD cards, etc. If I dont squeeze steal limps then my results will go way down.

I have adjusted, but its made my results more luck based, more getting good cards based. I got 3rd in American million 20k buy in 1.25 mil pay out. 450k cashed. And in that tournament I only squeeze stole limps, 2 times, all tourny long, instead of my normal of about 4,5,6,7,8 ish times by end of a tourny, and bluffed about 2,3 to 4,5, to 5,7 times, about 2,3,4% of time, instead of my normal 8% to 15% to 23% of time, and turned down GOOD bluffing opportunities, and turned down good squeeze steal limps opportunities.

Playing this way will make it so that if I am lucky get really good cards, I’ll do well, and if I dont get good cards, luck, etc, then no good results.

Congratz Donks on equalizing the field, chances, making good players have to wait for good cards, luck, just like you, by Donk limping Monsters on limp happy passive nobody raises tables.

14

I understood your post to be complaining that you were losing because a standard play was proving unprofitable, so I responded in kind. If it’s very infrequent, don’t worry about it, right? :smiley:

Anyway, you can also just keep squeezing when you think it’s a good squeeze spot. Just because you run into a monster sometimes doesn’t mean the field magically has more monsters than the average distribution would suggest. Most of the time, your squeeze play should work, and when it doesn’t you can just give up if their ranges are what you say they are.

Regarding blinding out due to insufficient aggression, my exploit is just to open more and continue less when facing resistance. I find this works quite well in most Replay MTTs, at least until you reach the late stages when a lot of the weaker players have already busted and you may need to readjust.

If you do that, it’s not an issue that you’re making fewer plays to come over the top of limpers with marginal hands. You’ll recoup the value in other ways, mostly by stealing the blinds at a high rate when you RFI.

15

Im a very positional player. My range is WIDE, but only in position.

Example:

Say I have 36 bb stack, and its between mid to semi later tourny, the blinds are about 300/600, I have a good image, I’ll raise 65 suited from the button, cut off, Hi Jack, SB, if its open folded to me, and on uncommon occasion, if there is 1,2 limps, I raise 65 suited, on button, cut off, about 6,6,7,8 bb.

UTG, early position, MP1, I am open folding 65 suited 99% of time, and 1% of time, I 2.5 x bb raising 65 suited from UTG +1,2, Low Jack, MP1, to mix up game, balance out range, exploit my tight image, if I have a tight image.

Because of this, I can be ultimate card dead, because sometimes on extremely rare occasions, it can be extremely hard to get dealt even 65 suited in position, or 65 suited in a situation where its ok raise early to mid position to mix up, balance range, or where its ok to limp 65 suited, etc.

This can make me seem tighter then I really am, which I exploit when I can. And this can cause me to sometimes be short stack to semi short stack(9bb to 17 bb to 27 bb stack)

My FIX for that, like I said is to occasionally squeeze, Jam, all in steal limp ins, with about a 9 to 16 to 24 bb stack.

Doing that keeps me surviving, floating, afloat, keep me from having a 4,5,6,7 bb stack, and instead can make me go from 9 to 16 to 24 bb stack up to about a 17 to 27 to 37 bb stack.

Maybe I am seeing limp trap monsters on limpy happy passive nobody raises table under the bed, because of how often I am having my squeeze steals run into those monsters.

Maybe thats just normal variance.

I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between somewhere.

I think the adjustment is not to goto the absurd level I went in the American Million where I only Squeezed stole 2 times, and only bluffed 2,3,4% of time, and turned down good squueeze steal spots and good bluffing spots, and despite that still luckily took 3rd.

But instead of squeeze stealing 5 to 10 ish times by end of a tournament, maybe I squeeze steal 4,5,6 ish times, and not squeeze steal when, if they limp UTG, and only squeeze steal if they limp in mid to late position, SB limps, and only if I dont see them limp a monster, and only if I have a 9 to 16 to 24 bb stack, and only if I am on button, cut off, SB, BB, and only if I have a good image.

At least I am aware of this problem, issue, and trying to figure out what to do, and actually trying out stuff to maybe deal with this problem, issue.

I do still think that Donks limp trapping monsters on such limp happy passive nobody raises tables, is slightly neutralizing me, other good players, equalizing, the chances, playing field, a little tiny bit.

Maybe that does equalize everything in a way a little tiny bit, where maybe because of that the amount they lose due to their stupid donk limp traps, is equally offset, by equalizing the chances, playing field a little tiny bit.

But I think its a lame way to play, do that, and they could win a lot more then they lose not stupidly donk limp trapping.

But it is what it is. Either a way can be found to deal with this, or if not, it still is what it is, and no amount of complaining about it, is going to change it.

Complaining does vent, flush, release the frustration, annoyance, tho.

1 Like
16

1% is probably not enough :smiley:

17

Well maybe its 1% or close to it. Maybe its not enough, but raising 65 suited in early position is a great way to get in trouble, so thats why I usually dont do it. Thats why I only do it somewhere semi close to 1% of the time, to mix up, balance range. I know that that only mixes up balances range a little tiny bit, but I still shock surprise some players when I raise 65 suited in early position, flop 2 pair, and TAKE THE OTHER PLAYERS STACK.

But yeah normally if I raise UTG, early position, the other player would be smart to run for the hills, fold, etc, so yeah my out of position range is not as balanced, mixed up, and is quite TIGHT, normally.

I still like it when I raise 65 suited UTG +1, get called, flop 2 pair, shock, surprise the other player, take the other players stack.

And then after that its nice, because then they think I am loose out of position, when I am not, and then I stack a player with a monster, because they think I am loose out of position, when I not loose out of position.

Also because I am so tight out of position, I can use that to occasionally steal from out of position, semi later to very late tournament, to keep on surviving, floating, building, chipping up, etc. So I can, do exploit that.

There is pros, and some few cons, playing that way, but I can and do usually make it work for me.

And its better then getting in trouble, and or more trouble because raise 65 suited in early position more, too much, etc.

I dont play as good as I could, and room for improvement, and I should technically raise hands like 65 suited from early position a little more often, etc. But its good enough to consistently win over the long term that way.

Perhaps if I was playing real money stakes at the highest stakes levels, against real top pros, or at least at the most highest stake levels here, at the highest competitive levels, here, then maybe I would raise hands like 65 suited out of position a little more like I should, etc.

18

I don’t know this will help you or not but the poker’s most needed skill is deception. All good players have a sense of deceiving others by doing what you told us. Also it is vice verse. Some middle hands do go super aggressive. Lot of pro players use GTO to navigate this conundrum and others just wait and see the behaviors. I normally don’t go too aggressive in first two levels or so. And then I mix up the style so that others can’t decide what to do. It does not matter if it is super limping table or super aggressive table. I think you have to find the balance and make your own play.

19

Yeah limp trapping monsters on a limp happy passive nobody raises table where if limp, then get monster in 9 way pot, with about a 50% chance to get outfopped, lose, and about a 90% chance to not get their donk limp trap bailed out, when they do that, then yeah thats deceptive surprising, etc.
But its the wrong stupid deception that nobody expects, because surely nobody would be stupid enough to do that, especially at the higher stakes. So if somebody is stupid enough to do that at the higher stakes, its going to deceive, shock, surpise, and cause a good player to lose a lot, because they sure as heck are not expecting it.

GTO is not the solution to the above problem, because GTO does not tell whether the donk is donk limp trapping in such a ultimate bad, stupid spot. All GTO does is tell you raise, call frequencies,etc, that in the very extreme long term, will be profitable if do. that has NOTHING to do with specific situations, usually.

Observation only helps to actually see a player do a stupid donk limp trap in a stupidly bad spot, and then play accordingly. observation does not help a good player to not lose a lot to a donk that they have never seen donk limp trap, donk limp trapping in a ultimate stupidly bad spot, at higher stakes, that will deceive, shock, surprise, cause the good player that squeeze stealing limps, because not expecting such stupid donk limp traps to lose a lot.

The only way to deal with problem, is to not squeeze steal early position limps, unless they see a player limp a lot of garbage in early position, and dont see that player limp monsters in early position. The other thing that can do is squeeze steal limp even more less often then they already do less often.

limp stealing early to mid tourny is usually bad, wasteful, etc, because 1. the limps arent worth stealing early to mid tourney. 2. Unless start with deep stacks, then really cant afford to lose a lot trying to limp steal, where if successful, you dont get much in reward. 3. the limpers usually wont fold to limp steal attempts. 4. Usually haven’t gotten a good perceived image perceived by others, early to mid tourny.

Gradually loosening up, and gradually playing more aggressive mid to later tourney is the way to go.

20

The reason to raise monster hands pre-flop is not equity denial. Sure, the more callers you get, the less pots you will win, but:

  • Raising is not going to fold out that many hands in practice, so you’re still going mutli-way to most flops
  • You win less often with more callers, but you win a bigger pot. The latter always outweighs the former when you have a monster hand, so more callers is actually better

The reason to raise monster hands pre-flop is to ensure the biggest pot possible. You seem to be overly focused on winning each hand, but there isn’t a strategy that can guarantee that.

Squeezing is going to be very profitable on passive tables long term, but you just have to accept that sometimes you’re going to run into monster hands.

2 Likes