Post Flop Range Construction

Poker Strategy
21

Here’s a hand from earlier today where I lose a good sized pot playing a little bit out on the edge. I’ll keep my hand hidden until the end, as I think that will help keep people thinking in terms of the thread: how do we play our whole range.

I’m first to act from the low jack on a full 6 max table and make my normal raise to 3.5 big blinds. I’m over 200 big blinds deep. I get calls from the cut off and big blind, bother strong, competent players, and both about 110 big blinds deep.

What are the ranges here at this point?

LJ:

  • all combos: AA-77, AK-AT, A9s-A3s, suited broadway, KQo-KJo, T9s
  • some combos: K8s, J9s, QJo, 66
  • rare combos: A2s, K7s-K5s, 98s-54s, 55-22, KTo, QTo

CO: I could be very far off, but probably has the tightest of the 3 ranges, and maybe something like.

  • mostly AJs-ATs, KQs-KTs, AQo, QTs, JTs, T9s, JJ-66
  • some AKo, AJo, AQs, KQo, K9s, Axs, 55-22, 98s-54s

BB: The big blind is getting a discount on his call, improved implied odds with the prior call, and is last to act, and can call quite wide.

  • all or nearly all combos: 98s-43s, J9s-53s, Q9s-74s, AQo-ATo, A8s-A6s, A3s-A2s, KQo-KJo, 99-22, K9s-K2s
  • significant combos: JJ-TT, AJs-ATs, A5s-A4s, AKo, AQs, KTs, QTs, QJo, QTo, JTo, 52s, 42s
  • rare combos: other stuff (note AA-QQ and AKs in particular I think will be fairly rare)

Flop is 6hQh7s with 11 big blinds in the middle.

LJ (me), bets well over half pot: 7.5 big blinds.

This is a board that doesn’t really favor my range much, with only one face card, and with both connected and suited cards, which favor the calling ranges. I’m also out of position against the CO. So much of my range will check here, including some top pair hands, and more rarely hands like AA or KK, and where I’m betting, I’m polarizing to a degree on the flop.

  • sets (all 9 combos)
  • AQ and KQ some of the time
  • AA and KK some of the time
  • very rare 2 pair (probably less than one effective combo)
  • AQs, A7s and A6s, with a front or back door flush draw, some of the time
  • KQs, K7s and K6s, again with flush draws, again some of the time
  • 98s and 54s with a full or back door flush draw some of the time (very few combos)
  • JJ-88 very rarely, as I wouldn’t normally take such a polarizing line with middle strength hands like these, especially against 2 opponents on a wet board. But I’m good at making bad plays at least some of the time.

CO calls. Big blind folds. Pot is 26 big blinds. Turn is 6hQh7sTh.

The flush is in, as is one made straight, and a ton of new straight draws. The board is now very wet, with a good chance that everyone likes their hand at least a little. I have quite a few flush combos and sets that are still quite strong. I think I keep betting with a fair part of my range, and with some bluffs to balance that. I’m not really to confident how to best play my range above. Wet multi-player boards… someone needs to write a book specifically to tell me what to do in these spots, LOL.

What does the checking range look like?

  • Maybe AA, KK and top pair hands some of the time (I think they can keep betting here some of the time also, but probably want to be slightly sizing down on the turn bet sizing).
  • Some sets, flushes and made straights, but I think I mostly prefer betting all of these
  • Junk. I don’t have much pure junk after the polarizing flop bet, but some of the weaker draws like the back door flush draws now missed, and these hands have greatly dropped in equity.
  • Some of my hands with the Ace or King of hearts, that have picked up a new draw
  • Some of my good draws

What keeps betting? I think pretty much everything above except the complete trash, some of the time, with a pretty wide variety of sizing.

I check. CO bets half pot, and I call. The pot is now 52 big blinds.

I think I don’t call much with a made flush. If I have a non-nut flush, I want to raise most of the time to charge someone with a better heart. If I have the nut flush, I want to keep building the pot, and just think there are a lot of hands out that will continue to medium sized raises.

Sets and made straights are tricky. I don’t really know whether I prefer calling or raising.

River is the 6hQh7sTh6c, pairing the board, and creating a class of hands better than the flush. I check, CO bets pot (most of his remaining stack). CO is not afraid to bluff, but I felt at the time that the bet was at least 2 to 1 value, and probably more like 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. So at this point I thought the range was mostly:

  • all full houses
  • some flushes
  • some busted draws
  • some occasional odd hands, like QT

I call, and get stacked by TT that was a marginal call on the flop, a pretty happy set on the turn seeing my check, and a very happy full house on the river.

My hand was an improbable holding: 98d. My lead into 2 players on the flop is a little aggro, but I like making plays like this at least some of the time. I regret a little not betting on the turn, after hitting my straight (with flush draws also hitting), but think the hand is pretty happy to check some of the time also, and the call to the half pot turn bet is pretty easy. On the river facing a pot sized bet, it is just a bluff catcher, and feels like I should have mostly folded there, though I think it is good to make calls with hands like these at least some of the time also.

1 Like
23

I’m really not comfortable commenting on the play of such a strong player as you are - but I never did learn to keep my mouth shut lol

I think you are still giving the CO too wide a range. 3.5BB from LJ is not stupid but it is sufficiently aggressive to say “You need to hit good to stay in the game”. CO is is probably going to 3! with JJ+ and AKs. I would put his calling range something like 66-TT, A5s, ATs-AQs, T9s+. I think you picked the range of the BB very, very close.

From the opponents view, I’d put your range as 98s+ (if I thought you were a bit loose), 77+, A5s, ATs+, ATo+ (at most).

I don’t think that the assigned ranges really matter much on the flop. Everyone played within their estimated ranges preflop.

With 3 competent players seeing the flop it’s a fair bet that one person hit in one way or another. You opened the postflop betting, CO called and BB folded. At this point I’d be thinking that the CO is chasing a draw. I think that any hand that beat you on the flop would have 3! pre. Calling post-flop may be a ruse but, in general, I don’t think it is particularly strong.

As I watched the hand, without knowing your cards, I was sure you would open post flop - thank you for not disappointing me! Checking the turn looked like a question! “I like my hand but I missed, what have you got?” CO raised and you called which confirmed that you are on a draw or a weak made hand. This was the perfect spot to check-raise but you didn’t. You obviously didn’t love your hand that much!

Hit or miss, the CO was going to bet against you on the river card. You were unlucky that he hit the full house but I don’t know why you even allowed that to happen.

Regards,
TA
(with much respect and apologies for my butchered analysis)

1 Like
24

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you made some good points.

Note that on the turn I had neither a draw nor a weak made hand, but the strongest possible hand that was not a flush. I felt at the time (and still) that I mostly want to bet in this spot, as I think there are plenty of weaker hands that will still call. On the flip side, there are a fair number of flushes in my opponents range. But I think a bet on the turn wins more than it loses, and so mostly betting feels correct to me. But I’m still having a hard time deciding exactly what hands I should be check folding, what hands should be check calling, what hands should be check raising, and what hands should be continuing to lead.

On the river there is still the question of range construction, but without having decided what hands I should have check called with, I’m far less clear on what my range on the river looks like. I’m sure I have some flushes, but I think most flushes did not take this line. I certainly also have a few sets that are now also full, but just like I think I should have mostly continued to lead with my made straight, I think sets on the turn are strong enough still to be able to bet for value, though at the same time I want some of them there to defend my checking range.

I’m not quite sure what you mean by not allowing it to happen. While I think that continuing to lead on the turn is probably the most natural line, here I’d be surprised if my opponent would have folded their newly acquired set of tens, after calling on the prior street, so it feels like the only way out for me in either line is to fold on the river (which was probably the correct play in any case, but I’m generally in the habit of making a lot of hard calls).

But thanks again for your thoughts. We’re all just flailing around here, trying our best.

25

Warlock recently suggested this topic, and I think it is a nice idea. Hoping to post some ideas and get ideas from others on how they think about ranges while they are playing.

I think a common mistake many players often seem to make is to become overly fixated on one or two possible hands their opponents might have, when instead they should be thinking about the relative probability of being up against various classes of hands. I like to think of this as a sort of quantum cloud, with my opponent having every possible hand a certain percentage of the time (they might have clicked the wrong button by accident a very small fraction of the time), and the actual hand only “materializing” when they are forced to show.

On the flip side, when playing against stronger players, it is useful to have some conception of what your opponent probably perceives your range to be, and I find that by keeping my own range in mind, I can also better divide my range into various lines, and be a bit more objective (hopefully) about which hands in range are the best for various roles.

Here’s a hand emphasizing how wide ranges can be at times.

4 handed. Cutoff opens to 3.5 big blinds. Button and small blind fold, and the big blind defends.

Cutoff range would usually consist of all broadway, all suited aces, all pairs (maybe with fewer combinations of some of the smallest pairs), many suited Kx and Qx hands, some suited connectors and gappers, and some offsuit Ax hands.

The big blind defend range is usually capped, mostly lacking hands like AA through TT, AK, AQs, AJs, KQs, QJs and JTs. A5s would also normally have a reduced number of combinations, since it is a frequent bluff 3 bet. That leaves a range heavy with remaining pairs, suited connected hands, suited aces, kings, queens and jacks, weaker off suit broadway, and some off suit aces and connected cards.

Flop of 7c4sJh, 7.5 big blinds in the middle

I think the pre-flop raiser likely still has a small equity advantage on this flop, but I’m less sure about who has the nut advantage. CO certainly has more JJ and over pairs, while the BB will have more 77 and 44, along with 74s, and 65 with a backdoor flush.

CO fires a continuation bet of just over half pot, 4 big blinds, and the big blind defends. What are the ranges now?

Oops… have to run. Maybe someone can finish the range analysis for me, otherwise I’ll pick it up later today.

2 Likes
26

This isn’t really the same as post flop range construction, even if it looks similar, and is starting in a similar place.

I think I’ll take a break from posting for a while.

2 Likes
27

Agreed - “thinking in terms of ranges” is a higher level concept than “post flop range construction”. Just because both have the word “range” in them, doesn’t mean they can be combined into 1 thread and maintain their value.

@grapevine - I wish you would reconsider merging this thread with the previous one. They really aren’t about the same thing. Geeky topics deserve space too :slight_smile:

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Threads of a similar nature are merged to enable new and existing posters to recap on what has already been said and add to it.
I am sure you can appreciate this.

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Absolutely - this is really nerdy stuff and combining the 2 would be confusing. Putting a higher order concept as a sub-thread of a lower order one might confuse readers trying to learn. It would be like putting a thread on learning French inside a thread on Writing French poetry.

Thanks!

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30

With respect, the OP has started three threads on the topic of ranges in recent weeks, plus there Is one other current by a different poster. I understand you are all very intelligent but it is wrong to assume others cannot appreciate the total content of posts.

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31

Since it was “with respect”, I won’t belabor the obvious. I am sure others will appreciate the non sequitur here without further comment.

And now to begin a thread on “Comparing top end ranges from Viking, Vulcan and GE” and see where that ends up.

(all fine - I’m just trying to help the players here who want to learn by making it easier to find what they are looking for. The term "range(s) is ubiquitous in poker conversations.)

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32

I think that all threads should be merged into the “Totally Topic-less, Anything But Complaining” thread, because discerning readers don’t need topics at all.

Topics are for the weak minded who need some organization scheme in order to separate different, but loosly related subjects.

Suggested with the deepest possible respect,

SPG

7 Likes