Well, if you have a button where you can see the flop, you might have to consider folding
But honestly, is this a serious question ? Okay, you’re never 100% sure to win, here your opponent has around 20% to win this hand. And you’re so deep, I mean it isn’t that important too. But always call, you can’t only think about the fact that you CAN lose, because mostly you’re going to WIN !
I think you have to raise there. You had 5 people left to act, and the next guy was already getting 2-1 to call. If he calls, the next guy gets 3-1, and before you know it, all of them are priced in.
Let’s say you raise to 1800 and get 1 caller. You don’t really have to beat them both. So the first guy flops a straight, but you beat the 2nd guy. You pay off the 1st guy and pocket the difference. Yeah, sometimes that second guy beats you and you lose more, but just calling is the worst thing you can do.
Not really, I’m just blowing off steam. I had several bad beats on possible elimination hands today. And a couple of legit ones, where my opponent had KK or 66 and I called them too loose.
The bad beats:
66 vs 77, I’m ahead until the flop when they hit a set, I couldn’t catch up.
A6 vs. A9, I’m dominating them, but then the board gives me a Wheel straight… oh we’re not chopping, he’s got 2-6.
AJ vs A4. Not a short-stack situation, it’s early in a SNG, and if I remember right I’m a little bit up.
The flop pairs both our Aces. I bet, they shove, I call, turn gives them 2 pair, I lose a huge amount of chips and am crippled, left with 270 or so to buy a coffin and a burial plot with en route to a 9th place finish.
There were others, but honestly if I’d just assume that every player holding between 700-1200 chips is holding a royal flush, I might have done better.
This is a really good point.
Sometimes when a player goes all-in, it can trigger an avalanche of all-ins around the table. I’ve seen it happen more than once here, where one player shoves a small stack from early position, the player immediately to their left shoves, and then 3-4 more players shove. I was hoping that by calling I’d avoid that. Sometimes a shove has the opposite of the intended effect, especially in early hands. With an avalanche of calls, there’s the possibility of shoving on the flop and getting anyone who missed the flop to fold. Of course, anyone who hit the flop better than 1 pair is likely to win over AA.
However, I do think that it’s still sound reasoning. I just don’t expect sound reasoning in early stages of a RPP table tournament
I took a great big pot very early from a player, leaving him with a desperate short stack situation. He later is dealt 55, shoves it. Apehead, who has open-shoved twice already to collect a total of about 135 chips, calls. I decide I better raise. Apehead responds by shoving. I’m holding AK, this is what I wanted. I call. 55 hits trips, Apehead hits a straight, I hit jack-squat, lose more than half of my stack, and am now the short stack.
Play by apehead was just nonsense… This often happens to me : players who just don’t care but still manage to get away with it just because they’re lucky. Yes okay, on the long-term they will help us out, but I would rather play only against serious players, than these kind of players… I hate it.
Anyway, yeah, had to 3bet/call here, was a good play.
I honestly don’t know. The guy shoved around 27 BB’s if I remember well… The thing I would like to do is just call and hope for many calling stations to call too. Okay, maybe on replay it would be a good idea to isolate your hand against shitty suited connectors who could beat you ? But I would as many people in this hand as I can, and if there happens to be other people with big hands (TT+), they’re likely going to jam, and after that you’ll be able to re-shove while winning the chips of the guy who just thought about calling these “800 chips”…
That’s just my way of thinking, but on replay, depending on the table, stakes,…, it can differ a lot.
Apehead is devious. I’ve seen them in a few more games. His table image is very loose, and he’ll shove frequently, and also is willing to call big bets from others. Somehow he ends up with a big stack of chips. If I played like that, I’d be out 8th or 9th, every time.
It is best not to get too attached to great starter hands. If you have AA, KK, QQ, AK, or AQ and you are seeing a flop, there is at least some chance that one opponent has flopped two pairs, trips, or better and if they shove on the flop, you have to decide, based on position, chip factors, prize money situation, and so on whether you will fold or risk it all on calling the shove.
Even if you have a pair of aces and the flop comes King high, giving your opponent who has KT second pair, any ten or king on the turn or river will put him ahead, so he has those 6 out on each street, or about 25% chance of improving. (We will just ignore flush and straight possibilities to keep it simple.) You simply have to decide whether you want to take that chance on that hand, where you will be if you win, and where you will be if you lose.
The player you are talking about has been on the site for 5 years, has only half a million chips, and is ranked in the 17000s, so it is entirely possible that his chips were paid for. No real evidence that he is a successful tournament player.
All that may be true, but he’s been successful this month, anyway. I think that there’s some method to his madness. Shoving a few times and getting folds doesn’t accomplish much in terms of chips won. You get 1.5BB and risk your whole stack potentially to get them. But it sets up a table image of a very loose player, which makes future calls on shoves much more likely. Which sets him up for when he does hit a monster hand to get paid in full.
I might not have raised with AK there. I know, conventional wisdom is to raise or reraise from any position with AK, but…
You had position on a guy you knew likes to jam too much. There was an allin, and you should have wanted to eliminate him. You only had ace high and were behind any pair, and not that far ahead of any 2 live cards, let alone 3 or 4 people with live cards.
In that specific spot, with those players, it’s ok to flat and see the flop, I think. You can still make a nice profit if you hit the flop, and you don’t have so much invested if you miss and someone shoves.
There’s a big difference between AA and AK, and every situation is different. I see AK as a drawing hand, and don’t mind a bigger field because such hands play well in multi-way pots. It sounds like you knew he wasn’t folding to your raise, and it sounds like you knew there was a good chance he would shove, so… why?
By the way, I’m not saying your play there was horrible… it was OK. Since you would have called if you could see his cards, it’s not a mistake.
I see a lot of people make that kind of play (limp or call, then shove to any raise) with small to medium, pairs. Your raise and his shove did isolate you against him, more or less, and that’s good. The allin wasn’t really a big deal at that point. It was just a lot of chips to risk when you are either a small dog (if he had any pair) or a not so huge advantage. (if he had something like he had) Of course you could have had him dominated if he had something like AJ or whatever, but still.
Sometimes the safer course is best for tournament poker, is my point, I guess.
You’re right. I @#$(&@(*&ing hate AK. It’s the worst starting hand. The 65% against any two cards that is printed on all the range finder cheat cards is a mirage. Half the time, it misses, and it ALWAYS misses against any paired hand. Or the pair will hit a set. It’s garbage and anyone who doesn’t fold it is a fool. Only limping can make AK hit, and then everyone will fold to any bet after the flop. You can win hands with AK, but not if your username is puggywug. That’s THE REPLAY WAY.
Well, let’s not get carried away here! AK is a decent starting hand, but it misses the flop 2/3 of the time, not half. It’s not an auto raise in every situation. Most of the time, yes. All of the time, no.
In tournament play, you want to avoid situations where you are either a slight favorite or a big underdog. This is especially true when you know you have almost no fold equity.
“Process” is the skill part of poker, it’s just that simple. “Outcome” or “result” also includes the luck part we all hate when it works against us. This is beyond our control, but overall better processes will bring better results in the long run.
It misses the board half the time, and the flop 2/3 of the time.
It’s absolute garbage in my hands. I’ve won one pot with it, and stolen blinds with it a few more times, and gotten good games destroyed on it more than I can count. It’s as good as 72 for stealing blinds.
Like you said, it’s a drawing hand. If you shove it, or call a shove with it, unless you have, like, a 10:1 stack ratio, you’re a fool. Reasonable bet sizes and getting off of it if you miss is a much better way to play it. Which is exactly why tiny pairs shove preflop so often, and why AK should never call a preflop shove unless you’re risking <25% of your stack.
Sounds like a great way to turn a big stack into a small stack.
I would do it the other way around: call if I was short stacked and do my best to preserve my big stacks. Why is it ok to throw away chips just because you have more of them? How many times have you seen people jump out to an early lead in a tournament, then get wiped out before the end? The reason this happens over and over is because they have that same approach… I can afford to make this call.