Fairness, Fun, and Profit ( MTT/SnG )

Suggestions & Feedback
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Dear Replay Poker,
This is an open letter and hopefully a debate that yields a path forward for both replay and players that benefits both. I want ppl to read with an open mind, then critical-logical discussion…
I also hope the staff prints this out and seriously thinks about this thread…

Profit & Fun : One of the biggest, if not the biggest goal for the staff is to run a profitable site and increase profits going forward, Also is the detication to the playerbase(community) to offer a Fun experience for all… ( as a programmer I know the trap in creating a game, where ego gets in the way of critical thinking of the creator(s) when making rules, design issues, ect ect ). The playerbase can only suggest and point out ways to improve the site, its up to the staff to balance out all issues and make appropriate changes to benefit ALL ( both staff/playerbase ). (( hopefully if the players said, we don’t want widgets and won’t buy them, then widgets aren’t shoved down thier throats cause someone high up thinks widgets are the best thing since sliced bread ))

Fairness : This is mainly about MTTs, and Promotions… because after you play long enough, you want a bigger challange… so logically, that means a MTT Promo. I started with the monthly leaderboards, then tried 1 of the Leagues, now the RPOS promotion…

Currently ReplayPoker uses a multipronged approach to calculate Tourn-Points… This works generally OK for the monthly boards where basically its “play an unlim # of MTTs, and take your top 40 best results”… but has Serious fairness issues when you apply it to say the Leagues or the current RPOS.
Due to the rules, specific styles of play are negated as viable options

Lets look at this in detail:
1: 3 variables in formula for Tourn-Pts… Entrants, Ending place, Entry Fee.
2: Only top 50% of entrants get Tourn-Pts.
3: Must be active, not away, for more than 50% of the MTT… to get T-Pts.

Two situations :
1: player ABCD wins a sunday afternoon MTT with 120 ppl for 10k entry, while player WXYZ wins a Tuesday morning MTT with 80 ppl for 10k entry.
2: player ABCD takes 59th in a sunday MTT with 120 ppl for 10k, while player WXYZ takes 63rd in the same sunday MTT with 120 ppl for 10k entry.

Using Current rules…
1: player ABCD gets aprox 54000 pts, player WXYZ gets aprox 44000 pts.
2: player ABCD gets aprox 7000 pts, player WXYZ gets 0 pts.

As I said earlier… While this works “mostly ok” for the monthly leaderboards ( still issues in Fairness )… it falls seriously short when applied to either lets say, Asian League or RPOS… and here’s why…

Lets start with a single hand, and lets say @ a certain point the smart move is to push the bet, so your opponents have no reason to call, thus fold …lets also assume, a Pro would play the hand the same way and its the best odds to win hand.
Next lets examine when this hand occurs… on hand # 3, later on AFTER a player is already past the 50% threshold including a final table.
Finally lets examine accumulation of Tourn-Pts during a Promotion…

So, the best poker players say, play a hand this way to maximize odds… Sure in a 1 hand senario I can do that, but if I’m sitting 64/120 then the risk of going out before 1/2 way says I cannot make that play, because the risk-reward is too great to play the hand. Because of accumulation, I also cannot make that play knowing I must " Point " in as many ( hopefully ALL ) MTTs I enter in any given Promotion. ( once I hit that 1/2 way point, I can go back to playing “good” or “smart” poker… thats if I have any chips left to do so with )

By implementing certain rules that fundemantally change the actuall game, ReplayPoker is hurting the FUN-Factor for thier players, hurting thier bottom line on purchases, and demonstrating a fundemental loss of critical thinking in development of thier site.
I still think ReplayPoker is the best… Browser based, free to play, poker site online…

No-Limit Holdem, Omaha, Royal… is No-Limit for a reason, you (RP) are changing it to something else by the way the application of the rules effect gameplay and fairness.

At the very time when it is the most important to use your chipstack the most effectively and efficiently ( the first few levels/hands ), ReplayPoker is saying… NO, we have made the risk too high/unfair for failure, that you now must play “stupid poker”…

Due to the fact I am talking about something that is about a 15 minute coding change, I’m not talking about something the staff would need to spend months developing, no … I’m talking about a change that levels the playing field in a Fair way, increases healthy competition, increases the fun-factor, increases participation in promos, and can only long term increase the revenue to ReplayPoker.

People say online poker can’t give you the live experience, or that its rigged, or its just for play chips so level of play sux… Here’s where ReplayPoker can Excell, because I must say… the overall level of play is MUCH higher in say the Red MTTs ( leagues ) or a specific Promotion… due to it being about more than just 1 MTT… players MUST manage “the bigger picture”… So making these Promotions the most fair, the most fun, and the most profitable (for RP), should be a priority for the staff…

While I 100% agree that “runners” have a place in that calculation in some circumstaces, when you get into a promotion that is a fixed number of MTTs, say 20 or 60 MTTs… any 1 MTT shouldn’t be more valuable than any other 1 MTT, for the winner…and there should not be any penalty for going out 65th versus 58th out of 120 people… other than the slight increase in points for a higher finishing posistion…

Suggestion-Opinion : If I was developing, basically the Superbowl of all Promotions, but even any Promotion I would strive for the fairest set of rules. There certainly would be points for ALL players depending on thier finishing rank. No 1 MTT would be worth more than any other 1 MTT. I would stucture it for maximum participation and fun factor.

Disclaimer: I have cashed in both Low-Med monthly boards, I won Asian League last month ( wire-wire ), won week 1 RPOS Fever Sattalites, and am currently 3-4th in RPOS overall standings. So that means I can succeed under current rules, its just no fun …
I cut my teeth online, playing 180 or 360 ppl SnGs, for over 12 months straight… no difference to a MTT with 180 or 360 ppl… so things like how hard to win, how long to play, strategy… I have alot of data to look at and am using to help evaluate my opinion in this case.

I am asking the staff to have a serious discussion here on this issue. It currently is inherantly unfair to players, less fun, and illogical… to tell players, to play “stupid”, “scared”, or “dumb” poker if they want to do good in a Promotion. It changes the game fundementally to something its not.

Sassy_Sarah

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Thanks for the feedback Sassy_Sarah, and congrats on finishing 3rd in the league of legends and winning the 1st week of Satellite Fever. That level of participation and success gives your comments extra weight and suffice to say you’ve got our attention!

I’m going to make sure the powers that be (those that manage our promotion schedule) review your comments, and we’ll do our best to respond to them in due course.

Thanks also for the kind comments about Replay, glad you understand the need to juggle various needs, but one thing we’ve always tried to do is put the needs of the players first, ie. the need for FUN! And fun in poker means creating a competitive but fair environment, so anything that can help us achieve that goal is most welcome. :blush:

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Mr Replay,

I mean no disrespect in any way, nor do I think I should enjoy xtra consideration in making suggestion and having them heard. I believe any “community” has the obligation to contribute. Yes I have certain skils that help, but I wanted to start a conversation so that it was the “community” giving most of the input, that can be used in general in the future for all of us… I also do want to understand the “staff” side of it and why some things are like they are…

The only reason I listed my finishes was to show I can play within any set of rules, and succeed. I personally believe that my poker prowess is only slightly better than average, but I do try to follow core ways playing that increase my odds slightly.

I would like to ask you, is this approach better, using the forum… or does the staff prefer players using the msgs to submit suggestions ??? what works better for you guys ??

For those of you that think I am outta line, I’m sry…I am NOT the smartest, nor do I have all the answers… and I am NOT always right…

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Great question! We personally love when players use the forums for suggestions, because every staff member can go easily see it, and any discussion it generates is useful.

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ok Fizzymint, I just don’t wanna get labled a malcontent… I have more suggestions rdy to post, but its almost like I beta tested the whole site then wrote a report in my brain… lmao…
I don’t own or work for ReplayPoker, so just how far I can suggest kinda has a limit…

I’m depressed this thread isn’t attracting a discussion… :disappointed:

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In the beginning the top 100% of the field got tournament points. Several players registered for tournaments and not played, they sat out the whole tournament just for getting extra tournament points.

Sitting out is allowed, there are many good reasons players have to sit out, but doing that only for getting tournament points is not a way to be competive on leaderboards. Tournament points you earn by playing and playing a good game.

To counter registering only for tournament points we added 2 rules. Only the top 50% of the field earn tournament points and players must play atleast 50% of their dealt hands.

For the permanent mtt leaderboards it not make any difference any more. But for promotions like The Replay Poker Cup or RPOS is does. When we not have these rules players can register for all the tournaments, they play the tournaments when they have the time and just sit out when they not can play and get some tournament points what can make the difference on the leaderboard.

Of course we still have the kick no show rule, but players can easy go around that rule by jumping in and play 1 hand and leave the site.

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If you ask me, the whole MTT tournament point thing is broken. Specifically, the cap on the number of games which count.

Let’s take the MTT Med board as an example. Currently, they only count the best 40 tournaments. This “only count X number of tournies” cap was added to even the field for people who can’t devote 14 hours a day to playing free poker. At this it fails miserably.

Someone who plays 40 tournaments in a month has no chance against someone willing to play 300 or more. The 40 cap is meaningless.

Why not simply issue tickets at the start of each month? Preload everyone’s account with 120 low, 40 med, 20 high, or whatever. Make it so only those tournaments where you pay the entry AND use a ticket count towards the leaderboards. This would make it fair for the casual players who represent 90% of your player base.

This would also add an additional layer of strategy to the leaderboard races. Will you spend a ticket on the 10k buyin blah blah tourney with 40 players or save it for the yadda yadda 20k buyin which has 100 players?

Anyway, the current “top X” policy does nothing to even the field, which was it’s design intent. It’s time to revisit the issue and find something that does work.

By the way, I suspect Sarah IS a malcontent, but she does make some valid points. :slight_smile:

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great idea! I strongly agree.

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I second!!! SPG’s idea sets the bar for all leadership competition and I am sure once instituted it will be the industry standard.

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SunPowerGuru, while some promotions… lets say The Olympic promotion… you had players (including me) chasing MTTs with the lowest # of players in an attempt to raise the odds of getting a 1st place… while your comment addresses the opposite problem… players (including me) chasing the MTTs with the most players, for the monthly boards, due to the increase in overall tourn. points. So if such a system was implemented, as I said, no 1 MTT could be worth more than any other MTT. While both situations are “legal” some ppl call that cheating, cheap, cheezy… others call it smart gameplay. I personally believe that using any exsisting rule to my advantage is smart gameplay. I did mention the monthly boards, and said the problem wasn’t as bad, I didn’t say it wasn’t still a problem. No matter what the rules are… there will always be players who use the rules legally and to thier advantage…

You are correct there will always be an advantage to the montly boards for the players that play huge amounts of MTTs compared to the casual player. There are many ways to solvle this, and you are also correct that 90% of the playerbase or @least 80% of the “active” playerbase are casuall players or want to be.

Happiness, If a player does the “workaround” and gets past the “kick no show rule”… then if they then sit out, they will still get blinded out and ultimately get no T-pts. You also say that small amounts of T-pts does NOT make you “competative” but tell that to the player that finishes in say 8th, but 7th place is only 645 pts ahead… In that case would scrap’n T-pts for what you would call a “non-played MTT”, help ??? it just might if you earned 1000 T-pts for 0 effort, in any “qualify’n” MTT along the way… ( but hopefully the 50% play or no pts rule kicks in yet again, and that player gets nothing ). I can say that I do have reservations on the “must play 50% of the hands rule” , but mainly this thread is about the " top 50% get T-pts " rule…

( for everyone else reading Sun’s comment, I think he was being sarcastic saying I am a malcontent… Congrats to Royaldab & Glaston in RPOS, they beat me…)

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When all players get tournament points you can not keep the rule of playing 50% of the dealt hand, so when you play one hand and blind out you get ponts.

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Did i say that?
Think you misunderstood. I was talking about a small amount of tournament points getting (not earning by playing) by sitting out.

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Yes Sarah, I was being sarcastic. I don’t think you’re a malcontent at all. You are offering well thought out ideas that, if implemented ,would make Replay a better place to play.

You are correct in saying that players will seek an advantage within any set of rules. I also agree that this is simply smart play. In most cases, this doesn’t warrant a rule change, but the current leaderboard system is an exception, at least in my opinion.

They already limit the number of events in the American, European, and Asian leagues, but in so doing, have made the leagues too rigid. You have to be there at a specific time and play more or less every event to stand much of a chance of doing well. The site should accommodate your life, not force you to rearrange your life in order to accommodate the site. Flexibility is the cornerstone of fun.

I think my proposed ticket system would accomplish this. Merging our ideas, that is, using tickets to limit the number of tournaments that count while also giving points to everyone, might be the ultimate solution.

By the way, I do take advantage of people just trying to hang in there for points. To me, this is just another bubble to exploit. I get more aggressive for the tourney points bubble, the “cash” bubble, and the final table bubble. I tend to play opposite the table; if people tighten up at these points, I attack more. This isn’t a problem that needs to be fixed, it’s just part of the game.

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ALL communication is resistance…bring the fun…aint the mon…enjoy the run…every body won…message from universe 5.25.2011

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