I think the value (or lack thereof) for a c-bet is highly dependent on the table you’re playing and style of those around you. If it’s a loose table, as most are - particularly at low/med stakes MTT/Ring - c-betting hasn’t been nearly as valuable to me as it should in theory. Fold equity is way down due to loose calls, so if not a semi-bluff looking for draws then likely not going to work as well as advertised. However if I’m late in tournaments or playing in higher stakes ring games with people that I know are committing a large portion of their stacks just to sit, I’ll be much more likely to c-bet anything. Haven’t done much research on delayed c-bets (assuming this means check flop, bet after turn…) but I’d be inclined to think the logic is the same.
flyfry - thanks for the reply. I wasn’t specifically thinking about the c-bet as it relates to RP. I was talking more about live play but advice for here is great too.
Conniff deviated from standard (I believe at Borgata Open 1st time it was widely seen) by reducing his c-bet frequency dramatically. He stated that since the c-bet had become ubiquitous, he felt is was better to deviate and only continue on hands that were more likely to be in his range than his opponents’. He played a lot of pot control as well by checking back a lot of flops on draw-heavy boards. He gave some free cards but I believe his thought process was to preserve his chips and make the decisions on the turn.
He also stated that the delayed c-bet was good for hands where he was only going to get maximum 2 streets of value on anyway.
So, for live play it is one discussion and for here it is another. I was thinking that because of the issues with pre-flop bets and c-bets basically all being called loosely, that maybe delaying the betting 1 street might be an EV+ play here? If you aren’t going to reduce the field anyway with the flop bet, maybe control the pot instead? It sounds horrible based on theory but play here isn’t following any theory so I am giving it thought.
i don’t know about the cbet theory of conniff so i can’t comment on that. what i can do is help you with the theory and strategy of it.
the base theory of cbetting is that because you were the last aggressor preflop you already have shown strength, and it makes sense to do it again on the flop because you in fact said that your strength is still there, while at the same time your opponent will miss the flop about 70% of the time so for him to continue he should most of the time play with air to avoid your cbet. even if he hits it doesn’t mean he got top pair, he might also have hit middle or even bottom pair. which makes it also harder to continue.
another good thing to know is to makes cbets often (assuming your opponent can fold) but not every time, first because it be very clear that you just do this too often and probably have nothing. and second thing is that there are also some boards when you just know your opponent have hit and he isn’t going anywhere.
don’t know where i read it but i once read a good rule for cbetting called the Q-8 rule. which means that if the are 2 (or more) cards on the flop which contain anything between the 8 and Q you can check-fold. the theory behind this one is that these are just not representing the high cards when you raised preflop and also because they are fairly frrequently into the calling range of your opponent. of course you don’t have to always use this rule but considering it and use it often will defenitely make it better.
another thing that might help is to consider which kind of boards to cbet on. is to bet more low flops against weaker opponents and more higher flops to better opponents. the idea of this is that weaker opponents look more to their own hands and fold if they don’t connect. and better opponents will look more to what you might hold and respect it if you bet on an ace high board because the will think sooner you hold that big ace.
a slightly harder but also effective addidion to cbetting is double barreling the turn. a good card is often a possible scare card like an overcard or a 3rd suit. the theory of this is that if the called they probably connected that board, so the scare card will probably be something he didn’t wanted to see. however don’t forget to consider that the story might not match up because you already showed strength the previous hand, so the strong players might assume that this was a scare card for you too.
at last, not really cbetting but perhaps also useful might be betting the turn instead of the flop. only do this to opponets that don’t respect your cbets anymore. the theory of this one is that your cbets became air in his eyes and betting the turn often seems much more trustworthy then betting the flop.
hope this helps.
Wait them out pick the right hand. Play your hand not their bets. Those people do all right for awhile but don’t last long.
Greetings Mr. A,
I’ve got maybe a couple of points to share with you, specifically in tournament play. You said they were both aggressive every hand. They have to play loose, Sounds like you were the peewee in the 3 some battle. My experience tells me you are way too focused on the goliath bettors in your circumstances. Sounds silly or outrageous doesn’t it ? If you really think about it, human nature tells us they are actually much more interested and focus on each other with the testosterone flowing pretty good during their chest bumping fury. You are nothing more than a fly on the wall to them right now In their minds with you being short stacked and can’t keep up. One of them is likely to bust out during this war and you move up a notch. That’s very important in Tourney play. When I’m in this situation, ( yea, I know hard to believe…) I play it no different than being short stacked and on the bubble in a big tournament. You have no chips in this situation to influence their betting, You are in the eye of the storm my friend. so now you can only play your hands for their value. Just remember when you feel you have them, You know you’ll have to go all in. If you learn how to play scrappy at the bottom and in a sandwich like this , no matter how small your stack is. Never give up playing. What you teach yourself about is far more valuable than chip gain. When it’s you and 1 or 2 others. Even being short stacked most players don’t know the proper strategies let alone being short stacked themselves, and they’re absolutely lost. ( God bless them ).
Please allow me to explain. Your situation mathematically has a very negative expectation. This is why a lot of players give up and go all in quickly just to get it over with and on to the next tournament. It’s certainly everyone’s choice. That’s what 80 to 90% of all players do. Right now, I want to thank each and every one of you who do that. It’s helped my bankroll tremendously. Tournament Poker presents many unbelievable situations. To be a good player you need exposure to theses events. I was taught enough discipline early on to play out my seat as if your life depended on it. The more you get yourself into situations early on in your poker playing career, the more opportunity you have to learn the real game of poker here, even on these tables. I’ll also tell you, with the right mindset, it’s a lot of fun, especially when you make your first “Unbelievable comeback” I still remember my fist. I’ve been a junkie for that feeling ever since. It doesn’t even have to be a cash out, I just enjoy this part of poker. It’s amazing that it happens as much as it does. I feel I can play as well as most when I’m short stacked. You can too !
You only get to be depressed about a bad beat until your next hand, whatever it is you have left, respect it and play your tail off.
You think about all the professionals and semi-pros that depend on their winnings to put food on the table. That’s not a person you would want to battle heads up, even when they are short stacked, and maybe on or close to the bubble. He’ll know exactly how to give himself a chance to steal your chips while you’re sitting there wide eyed, bushy tailed.
Hope some of this old war horse talk rings a bell, Walt, Rail-Bird
I go all-in. Im aggressive as well.
How I handle them is playing smallball. Let them bully you around, give yourself the rep of a tight passive player in the early cheaper levels, then once in a while contradict your image and be 3-betting, triple barrelling, shoving with hands that are only going to be live.
@Rail-Bird
I love that answer!!! Impressive insights and battle till you can’t battle no more 
Some of their raises may have been an attempt to exploit you, especially if you are in the blinds. Check your defending and 3 bet ranges to make sure they are solid. Here are ideas for you can fight back:
When a player raises larger then you don’t have to call with as many hands. If they’re opening wide enough then look to 3bet them light. You can also flat in position with the intention to float on some flops. If you think they are c-betting and barreling too much, try working in raises to exploit this. When a player is aggressive you want to try and find spots to expoit their aggression. Don’t play scared - you need to be willing to put your stack on the line when you get the right spot.