Advice?

I don’t understand this sentiment, which has been echoed by a number of players here.

You are going to have the nuts, or even just strong value hands, WAY less often than you have air. When bluffing is part of your game, it’s very easy to over-bluff. I’d much rather get “caught” with strong value hands and have opponents over-fold to my bets, giving me uncontested pots. This is doubly true in tournaments, when getting a single bluff called can kill or cripple your stack with no ability to reload.

Why would we want to show bluffs and make it more likely for opponents to call us down in the future?

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I have no idea who wrote this.
I never bluff. I always got it.

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Whether its showing or getting caught bluffing,
There’s always +FV (future value) in showing the total bluff with like 2-3off.
Think of it as a 7-2 bonus. Most of those, the winner gets everyone else to fold, with nothing ( or near nothing ), which tells the table you have the capacity to make that move , the willingness, and can complete it sucessfully.

When you play mainly against the same ppl, they all prolly have seen “that move” of yours before… but when you aren’t playing those ppl, you have to establish table presence and what your ranges are. I think thats kinda where Juicee was going, you have to bluff just enough to get paid when you need to down the line.

Its often been said, its all about the story you tell. In order to not get read like a cheap romance novel, just write all different kinds of stories …just make them best-sellers.
Sassy

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This is exactly what I’m disputing. I think that showing a bluff with 2-3off is -FV, and provided my rationale.

You’ll have the ability to bluff with air far more often than you have the nuts. If you do expand beyond obvious bluff candidates to include some random garbage hands, then you’ll be bluffing way too much. When your opponents think you always have the nuts and fold in response to your aggression, that’s a very good thing. You’ll end up winning way more in the long run than if your opponents always call you down, particularly when you bluff too much.

Coder,
You bluff more than I do apparently, but look @ this from a range building database program. As it loggs your play, its continually building/updating your ranges. You won’t get credit for limp’n AA, untill you do it AND its proven that you did that. Just like you won’t get credit for opening action with crap, then bluffing all 3 streets, untill you do that and its proven you did that. Once it builds up a sufficient # of hands, it starts more focusing on likelyhood of you limping AA or in what posistions do you limp AA.

Against players you haven’t seen… you start with a 0 hand history on them. Those players also are building one on you. Since players can adjust play each R.table/SnG/MTT, you could be starting from scratch vs a specific player each time.

Lets say your on a table, and no matter what you do… when you bet with a quality hand… ppl just insta-fold. If noone will call you , you’re not maximizing value, so you have to bet like normal, everyone folds, then you show complete garbage so that in the future you get a few callers more often.
Same holds true if noone takes you to showdown on your quality hands, they you almost go outta your way to show the table, you’re just kill’n it… by showing your made hand, so ppl know your kill’n it… and not bluff’n all the time.

Remember Coder, I said … if you’re playing ppl who already know how you play, this is not necessary, but against unknown ppl… its almost like you have to train them. If you think I’m a tight player and I wanna chg your opinion, best way to show that is show a bluff.

I agree totally that giving away free information, in general, is a bad idea.
But Juicee has a point too, if that player that you made lay down a good hand, for a chunk of chips say lvl 4 to a bluff, ends up on final table against you lvl 11… you want them to still remember that hand, and push you with a strong hand even tho there are bigger hands, 1 of which you have and crush them with.
Sassy

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I hope you know Sir, this means war!!! I will be doing some trash talking & calling you out from this link Mr. Coder, or can I call you Wanna?

BB checks. UTG shoves
table folds back to me.
AcXc, KcXc, and JcXc beats me, but…
Is there any way i don’t make this call?

I’m not sure what your position is here. In ring, I’m definitely calling. In a tournament, if I care about the points or a cash, I’m folding. :slight_smile:

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If you watched the hand, you’re seeing V shove with 2 pr, having a red QTo, in the hole. I was ahead when i called, but fell behind when the board turned a T. This is a common occurrence for me, and a big reason for all the 9th, 8th, and 7th, SnG finishes. Seems like i have either a 1-3, or 7-9 finishes, with very few in between. Hands like this are probably the reason. Still, if people are gonna shove with 2 pr. on a flushed or 4 to straight boards, shouldn’t they be punished? Suck outs are gonna happen, but I gotta think i’m winning this hand 5 out of 6 times. Plus, people gotta know i’m not gonna fold to an inferior hand just because I have to put my stack in the middle.
On the other hand…I fold, forget the hand ever happened, and i wait in the tall grass for a chance to use skill, instead of luck, to win some chips.
I’m still on the fence with this one.

Its obvious he was trying to get his chips in with top pair or 2 pairs and wanted a fold by everyone to avoid seeing the flush. It looks like this is the beginning of a sit n go or MTT but whether its rings or tourneys thats a tough one but im betting 1/3 to 1/2 pot if im him and check/folding if a club on turn hits and i dont hit the boat. Your other option was to try and bet him off his 2 pairs with that flush draw board instead of checking but i think he still calls and the results are the same. IMO you both made close to the correct moves but if im flopping a flush holding 97 then im betting a good amount, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 stack and not checking, if he raises u all in u still call. That hand was basically a heads up coin flip. If i was him i woulda bet the same 1/3 to 1/2 pot as you coulda and you call but if no club shows on turn then im shoving if im you IMO but if im you I might bet half pot before allowing someone else to shove knowing hes prob got 2 pairs and no club. Another player prob folded a much higher club on the draw but didnt wanna chance a knockout in 1st blind level of a tourney. You have the made hand on the flop, gotta go for it there hopefully betting off a higher draw too. Getting to heads up was the best you could hope for there. Also depends on if you know the player or have played and seen him play several times. Dont think those minor changes woulda changed the outcome tho but you both played that as well or almost as well as u coulda.

Call unless you have a specific read that V is only ever shoving the nuts. Yes, V can have a bigger flush but can also have baby flushes, 2pair, a set, maybe also something like AcXx or KcJx. You’re ahead of most of their range. They’ll have equity so you’ll lose sometimes but most likely you’re miles ahead here.

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thanks much for your responses. It’s weird playing 2 game strategies . I’d like to think I’d make the same decisions, playing for chips that cost me pennies, or when the picture on the bill i’m putting in the middle, is president Grant. Not having buckets of money at my disposal, we know that’s not true, but validation is still nice.

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By betting out you Rep the higher flush and might get a weaker flush to fold. Obviously 2pr or trips is also something you are repp’n, so any other 2pr or trips will have equity to make the call/shove. Hopefully you bounce out anyone with only 1 club thats higher and can draw to a better flush.

Too many smalller bets just price in future callers here… any board pair, or 1 more club prolly spells doom. Not sure you can just sit back on this hand, this early… otherwise you’re folding here, cause he just repp’d the higher flush.


This is 1st hand, you paid 105 to see the flop, you’re UTG on the flop, and 5 ppl see the flop. V raised preflop therefore could have suited paint or a pr. Sounds like its also a SnG since you said 1-3 or 7-9 finishes.

The last thing is, if you call all in, and you lose, by virtue of your seat, you will finish 9th place. If you cannot afford a bad finish … because you checked, you MUST fold. All other situations you shove behind and take your chances.

There musta been a reason you checked, whether trying to trap or not wanting to be all in on the 1st hand, but you got the bad news… the higher flush got repp’d.

Since you are BB, you didn’t have the chance to bet 9-7s, so the flatcall preflop is usually right here. Checking the flop is completely wrong here. You have the ppl that will donk off chips with a variety of hands here to your flush, if you are trapp’n then its an insta-shove behind. You’re only behind to 3 cards and that player has to be suited, so I say you jump all over that flop, knowing you’ll call anyone’s re-raise.

Your flop bet, must bounce out AcQx, KcQx, and make it painfull for 2pr/trips to call. As I said , if ur trap’n then you want to price in anything including Top Pr/kicker, but should be rdy to call anyone. With any flush, if the board pairs not good, as well as a 4th club since you only have middle clubs. Thats always the problem with an early flush with cards still to come.

Betting 270-720 screams call me, plz. Betting 1420-1900 says you have high flush, buyer beware, but shoving is suspect because they might not have clubs, or have the nuts. If they do have the nuts, why not price in callers here though…

( long term ) getting your chips in the middle with the best hand is all you can hope for, especially if its isolated to 1-2 other players.
Sassy

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My plan here was to check/raise a large bet, or call several limpers, with a pot bet to come, if no club on the turn. A big flop bet might have scared off 2 pr., but probably not. It might have kept him from shoving, tho. That gives me an out, when the board pairs.
If he had dropped his hand, i’d have ended up with the blinds on a flopped flush. Happens all the time with AA or KK, and doesn’t bother me at all, but here, i really wanted an early lead. get paid for being lucky.
If it happens again, I’m calling again. If they beat the odds, and have the higher club flush, or draw to the boat, that’s poker.

Honestly, this is pretty ideal. You don’t want to waste a bunch of time if you aren’t getting paid. Take a risk early when you can and either get the lead or donk out and get on to the next table. Exception: if you’re playing for certain types of leaderboards.

I strongly agree with this. It’s better to raise all-in than call all-in. Being the aggressor adds fold equity to your already strong hand. There’s a possibility of a come from behind and the opportunity to nip that in the bud should always be considered. Also, if you expect to call anything anyway, why not do it before they do?

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Guess that’s why it’s all about the nut.
But don’t you guys think it’s wise to hold back, now and then. Let them know that you might be holding top pair, even tho you didn’t bet it on the flop. Or, sometimes bet the set, sometimes trap. I usually bet strong hands aggressively, to clear out draws, but without something to mix it up, I’d quickly become exploitable. Suddenly all my draws are getting blown out.
There are other reasons for checking. I’ve lost my share of hands when my K high flush dies, as the board goes 4 to flush, and someone has the nut.
There can be value there when someone fills a straight, or 2pr.
The possibility that someone who flopped 2 pr., a set, or straight, will shove.

By pushing, you are attempting to get rid of those draws. Unless points are paramount for a leaderboard or you are on the bubble to cash, I’d push rather than check. Checking leaves you the option to fold on a later street, if 4 to a flush comes, but I’d rather win a small pot than none at all.

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As luck would have it, I flopped another flush, in a 50K buy-in, in which i just finished on the bubble. #&!!& %$. Now that that’s out of the way, I’d like to add that I checked the flop.
V shoved on the turn.

granted, there are differences, such as having the nut, but i was still open to him drawing a full house, with the board pairing on the river.
Had i shoved, or bet heavily on the flop, he probably has me on a set, and folds. The draw can’t be that tempting, with 4th nut.

Perfectly played. I like the 5x open facing a bunch of limpers with an incredibly strong preflop hand instead of checking your option. Checking the flop when you have relatively little to protect against made a lot of sense, too.

NB: V shoved on the flop facing your check. Also, V was drawing to just the 5th nut flush with the jack of spades - a straight flush holding 6s4s was the nuts in that spot.

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Right on both points. Saved the hand while playing, since it kinda related to the former hand i posted. I copied the result, and never replayed the hand, going just from memory. I wouldn’t push with a pair of J in that situation, and assumed he didn’t either.

The weird thing about the other hand, is in a real cash game, I probably would have folded, because losing would mean standing up, and leaving the casino, after 1 hand. Never played holdem for cash, tho, so who knows.