Active Learning vs. Passive Learning

I just want to hear your opinions about Active and Passive learning when it comes to poker. It is important to learn in depth about theory and calculation, but is it really necessary to use them in real game? If so, please explain why it is so. I am not a GTO fan nor active learner. Everything I learned came from experience. I think it works well but will I end up having handicaps to those who dive their nose to learn about poker? Please feel free to leave comments. All are welcomed.

There are top pros who make a career out of poo-poo’ing GTO, like Charlie Carrell (ok he may not be a “top pro” anymore but he’s still one of the best in the world).

I think many roads lead to Rome, but even Charlie has a fundamental understanding of GTO principles, from which he deviates based on his own ideas of what will be the most profitable exploits against a given opponent.

You can probably beat the average Replay player without knowing too much “theory” and just relying on experience. If you want to beat more skilled opponents, I think at some point you have to start employing the more nuanced strategies GTO consists in, or it will be difficult to keep up.

The best players find all sorts of unexpected bluffs and mix/balance their lines so that it’s quite difficult to know exactly where you’re at in a given hand. Competing with such a tough opponent using only experience/intuition is certainly possible, but the more hands you play, the more I think you’ll find that there are leaks you can’t really plug without diving a little into theory.

Of course, it’s possible that your combined experience and intuition are strong enough that you play GTO-approved lines without even “knowing GTO.” Not very likely, but possible.

Not sure what you mean by “is it really necessary to use [theory and calculation] in game,” can you clarify?

Thanks for your reply. What I meant is that when someone faces certain hand, they have to calculate and think where their hand fits in to. I do have basic knowledge of GTO, ICM, IPO stuff, but what I see from it is that if you have enough hands played, there will be some sort of theory of your own formulated by then. I do agree that GTO seems so logical but we are human after all. We do unexpected play and it will be hard for you to decide what to do if GTO says otherwise.

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I agree with everything you just said :slight_smile: GTO is just a baseline, and we deviate from there based on our own instincts, experience, and knowledge of our opponents.

On the other hand, here is a pretty marginal Final Table spot from tonight, that I was only able to play correctly because I’ve been studying the Upswing GTO shove/fold charts for 10bb:

Besides being a baseline, GTO also when combined with proper POSITIONAL play, balance your range out.

Example:

Take a hand like 87 suited. Thats a wide range hand. 87 suited is a ok hand to either Raise, call, limp, etc, if in proper Position, according to GTO.

If in early position, a player should either be open folding 87 suited most of time, or on rare occasions, raise it 2.5 x, when early position, or on rare occasion limp it, if have at least 1 limper in front, and if wont get raised, 3 bet, etc.

Now on the Button, Cut Off, Hi Jack, SB, 87 suited is usually a raise unless have 2,3,4 + limpers, and even then can, should raise about 5, 6,7,8,9 bb’s, +1 bb per limper to try to scoop the limps preflop, or put pressure on.

Now it can be hard sometimes to even get dealt a hand as WIDE as 87 suited in a spot, where its ok to play it. Because of that semi card deadness, it can look like, appear at times that I am a NIT. So when I do raise 87 suited in the cut off, everybody can think I am raising a monster hand.

Positional play, and GTO play can, do balance you range like that.

The other thing GTO can do, does, is that when, if there is a spot, where dont know what to do, GTO can, does help to know, do what need to do, when, if dont know what to do.

And those spots, situations do come up.

The best players use GTO as a baseline, and actively use both GTO, and Exploitative poker play and positional poker play, etc, all combined together.

That said GTO is important, because over the long term, its theoretically unbeatable, as if you do stuff at the OPTIMAL GTO FREQUENCIES, etc, then cash, win over the long term theoretically

Because of that, if in a spot, its 50/50 on whether should use GTO, or whether should Deviate from GTO, and play Exploitative, then in that specific situation choose GTO over Exploitative.

Thanks Asuronetorius for your reply.

First of all what I am about to write is not for argument, but for extending my understandings of it. Please keep that in mind.

I do understand your explanation but it is quite extensive compare to some of things you can do without GTO guidance. I am not saying theoretical part is not important. But is GTO and other charts and equations are actually going to work for every one? Yout talked about 8 7 suited. I only have three things I consider when I play this hand. First is do I have enough chips to go on if this is the wrong hand. Second is what am I gonna do when I am in different positions (OP, MP IP), Then from then on I watch other player’s behavior, mostly watched over many hands before to analyze. I am sure if someone played long enough, they might come up with similar conclusions. Not as detailed as you have but you know what I mean.

As my original question, I have to say theory brings too much things to my little brain and often makes me over think some issues. I was just hoping some other way to improve myself on the subject.

Thanks for the tips. I will keep in mind.

Part of playing 87 suited right, is whether playing 87 suited to monster hand mine, trap, balance out range, steal blinds, limps, etc.

Usually when playing 87 suited your usually playing it for most of the reasons above.

If playing it to steal blinds, limps, then its important to know if players will likely fold or call.

Thats a example of Exploitative play, and how, when Exploitativie is more important then GTO in some situations.

But lets say your playing 87 suited for great postflop playability, and to trap, and to monster hand mine, and to balance out your range.

Those considerations are GTO based, and when playing 87 suited for those reasons, then GTO is, can be, etc, more important then exploitative, because there is no will my opponent likely fold or call, etc, to consider preflop, when playing 87 suited for those reasons.

Every Time that play 87 suited for non exploitative reasons, and play 87 suited for the non blinds steal, etc, reasons, etc, I named, your using GTO whether you realize it or not.

Experience, time, study, play, etc, can gradually, eventually lead to learning GTO, and applying GTO easier, without brain meltdown, etc.

Also there are CLOSE ENOUGH Shortcuts, an or only have to be CLOSE ENOUGH.

Im not the best at math, memorizing stuff, knowing stuff, etc, but I am CLOSE ENOUGH, and usually correctly apply, use that CLOSE ENOUGH knowledge.

All the Theory, math, etc, melts my brain at times.

I prefer to use a mix, combination of Exploitative and CLOSE ENOUGH GTO, math, knowing things, memorizing things, etc, in a non brain busting way.

Forgot about books, calculations ( if u do not know basic stuff like a pair flops u a set 12.5% of the time-that is one out of 8 lol then do not worry lol )…Just have patience and play the PLAYER, most players play the same ( good ones know how to mix it up but 90% do not on here ) and you will be ok, gl.

I do agree with you. I do have basic knowledge of theories and calculation. It is just too hard for me to pull out right formula at the right time. Thanks for the comments and lets have it a go at the game. :wink:

Great point that being “close enough” is more than good enough in the majority of spots. Unless your opponents are pros, you don’t need to be perfect, or even worry about trying to be perfect. You just have to avoid making big mistakes too often.