I came in late, just before the deadline. I was only a few hands in, with a loss that had taken 1/3 of my stack.
I’m looking at less that 2:1 pot odds, and a couple of 11:1 shots at the gutshot.
This pot would probably put me close to chip leader. Is there any hidden poker wisdom that would justify making this call?
I have Jc Kh
your fold on the flop was correct. Your mistake was playing KJ in the first place. this is 9 handed table KJ off suit is standard fold!
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does that apply to all positions?
No; if everyone before you has folded and you’re fairly late to act, I could see playing KJo.
Let’s put it back to you, @waidus. How wide must your range be (% of total hands) in order for you to play KJo? What does that imply about the number of players left to act?
the practice range i showed you was 18%, which i’m guessing is too loose. to get that down to 13% or so, KJo would be one of the first to go. Maybe KQo, as well.
KJo was listed at the bottom of your “Swing + Open” range here, which encompassed about 13.5% of your hands. You probably should have included more low-to-mid pocket pairs in this range, which would put KJo as a marginal holding (occasional open, occasional fold) in a ~16% range.
As such, I’d look to open it when I’m two positions off the button, assuming everyone earlier had folded. That would leave four players left to act, two of whom would have position on me postflop, and two who would be out of position postflop. In earlier positions, or if players earlier to act had limped/raised, we should play tighter and fold KJo.
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Yes, but there is a flush draw on the board so even if you hit the gutshot, there is a fair chance that you will lose to a flush so you cannot consider the Queen of Clubs to be an out for you.
As stated above the error was limping from early position with K Jo.
Having said that, in these cheap entry tournaments, there is something to be said for playing for the huge pot early on to seize a large stack before you have invested any time in the game, but this cannot be considered to be good poker as even play money games should be played as if the money is real.
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you are under the gone. and the under the gone raise is very strict! either you have AA or nothing. so if you want to go crazy raise with 2 7 under the gone. KJ is considered one of the worst hand by TOP elite players, even they avoid playing it!
I think one of my problems is using a chart i found, to try and find combos to fill a range. It uses a fairly large sample of hands played on a poker site that i’m not familiar with. From this data, they derive an EV, and rank the hands accordingly. The hands were limit holdem, but I don’t know what the limits are on small/big bets, or if it were real or play chips. It tends to make my range top heavy. KJo is rated 0.06. KQ 0.18.
When you refer to balance, do you mean replacing hands with higher value, with hands that would cover more flop scenarios? Perhaps more suited connectors in the low to mid range?
You already mentioned adding lower pair combos. When referring to the chart, to check my numbers, i noticed 66 and 77 were both rated higher than KJo.
I sometimes mention being lured away from playing solid poker. One of the things is, in “free” poker, there are tactics that often work, but are seldom seen when real cash is at stake. It’s tempting to exploit them. The other temptation is gambling, and i can’t be the only one. I watched Danial N. shove on a flush draw, 1st hand of the tournament, and walk out when it didn’t hit. Maybe there was something there that shifted the odds to his favor, and i just didn’t see it, but i’m thinking, that was gambling.
I have heard that KT is a sucker’s hand. Sounds like KJ might be just as bad
the reason KJ is so bad, for example lets say you hit a K on the flop, you are beaten most likely if all in by two kands KQ or AK. if you hit a J on the flop you are most likely beat by over pair or AJ. When you have KJ you are constantly paranoid about being coolered!
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13% in an MTT setting is still way too wide off of 17 bb’s. Shove range should look like
99+ AQs+ and AQo+… 99 and AQ are at the absolute bottom UTG with 17 bb’s 9 handed. This is a 5% range @waidus
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^^THIS^^
KT and KJ have their place, it’s the limp utg that makes them suckers.
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I think i’m gonna take ilovecat’s advice. UTG range of 1 hand, at least on aggressive 9 seat tables. Then i could just stick to short tables. i seem to do much better, with six seats.
I must have gotten KJo a half dozen times today. folded them all. all would have ended up losers
no no no! KJ under the gun is fold! but you can still play it when you are the button or cutoff nothing wrong with that. But just be extra careful!!! and on the the big blind is ok too, but once again be very careful! it is a very tricky hand to play correctly!
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Hmmm… Where have I read something like that before?
So, looks like I’m a touch looser than @Ilovecat, since I advocate occasionally opening in the HJ as well as CO and BTN. Still, the point remains: the later you are to act, the wider your open range should be. If you’re using a single range regardless of position or action by previous players in the pot, you’re going to be too tight in late positions, and too loose in early positions and/or when players before you have shown interest in the pot.
A balanced betting range has a blend of strong hands and weak hands, and before the river comes, a blend of made hands (preflop: pocket pairs) and drawing hands (preflop: suited and/or connected hands, Broadways). The balance between these different classifications of hands in your betting range should determine your bet size.
I’d also recommend dropping your preflop limping/calling range from every position except the big blind. It’s generally a bad habit that will lead to -EV play. Instead, play everything as a raise (open, 3-bet, &c.) or a fold.
Sounds like the day 2 re-entry to the 50K… he busted the first hand he played getting it in with a draw. The thing about it is, he was playing on 10 bb’s and was priced in equity wise to call. There were no considerations other than pure chip EV because they were not close to ITM and he had 10 bb’s.
He also famously fired 29 bullets in a $1K re-buy (back when re-buys were a thing) and finished 2nd for $99K. When asked in an interview he said it was advantageous to him to flood his table with a ton of chips because he could outplay his opponents there with a massive edge over them… worked like a charm.
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I don’t know if this is a reaction to my comment.
If so I would just say that while I was saying KJ and KT have their place I never advocated that place being UTG and if my comment could in anyway be interpreted that way I thank you for clarifying it for me. Cheers @Ilovecat
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