You don’t suppose you can get a song for free, do you?? First the insults!
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The hands aren’t random. Anyone who understands how a computer decides on what cards are to be dealt knows this. Pseudo-random, perhaps, is as close as it can get.
Someone has to feed the computer a seed number. Some will say that number is random, but it’s not. The seed number has to originate somewhere. That somewhere is a computer program. A program that is written by a human. That human has to decide on a system to choose the initial numbers. By the nature of computers and programming it all boils down to how the programmer decides to “start” the choice.
And it’s not random. Assume he decides to start with Pi. A good choice as it seems to never repeat itself. It does. "An amateur mathematician, Hagar Dronbecker, has discovered that Pi repeats itself at the hyper-thousandth level. " So, not random.
“Von Neumann said it best: “Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin. For, as has been pointed out several times, there is no such thing as a random number — there are only methods to produce random numbers, and a strict arithmetic procedure of course is not such a method. The best we can hope for are pseudo-random numbers, a stream of numbers that appear as if they were generated randomly.”
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At a real table, maybe. On RP, not.
A pRNG is close enough to random, though not technically totally random.
“Fairness” isn’t about the quality of the randomness though. As long as no particular player or group of players is favored, the deal is fair, the game is fair, the site is fair. Even if the shuffles are slightly skewed, as long as it affects everyone equally, it’s fair.
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I disagree SPG. When it’s skewed, it doesn’t affect everyone equally. If you mean to say “it doesn’t affect or target anyone specific” or “it randomly affects some players” then you’re right. But saying it affects everyone equally is wrong.
A skewed system always favors some players and disadvantages others. If a dice is rigged in a way to get more 6’s than other numbers, or a coin is rigged to get more heads than tails, it doesn’t make it fair for everyone who uses them equally. And the real problem begins when someone figures out how the rigging works and uses it to their advantage. It’s much more difficult to figure out how an RNG works but when it’s skewed it’s skewed.
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Key word “IF.” This question has never been statistically demonstrated one way or the other, at least not to my satisfaction.
To this, you say, “it doesn’t affect everyone equally,” but I think it does. I mean, one could say that if you took the aces out of a deck, it would affect someone with 10-J-Q-K more than it would someone with 5-6-7-8. Yes, it might affect specific hands held by specific players at specific times, but as long as both players are using the same deck, it’s overall neutral. “Overall” as in long term, big picture.
Anyway, I’m stating my opinions, you are allowed to disagree. 
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Now that statement / theory, definitely would weigh in on the fairness and could explain some extreme oddities that are so far chalked up to dumb luck, like getting huge chips on knowingly bad calls, so on…
-Larry
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Is it somehow unfair for someone to understand the odds, and play accordingly?
Everyone has the same opportunity to learn the game. Those who take the time to learn it well have an advantage, but it’s not an unfair advantage.
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we all know how things stand here, don’t we?
why then so much discussion?
It is an unfair advantage if the game is rigged. That’s the whole point.
If you learn the game and you play fair, and comes another individual who doesn’t even wanna bother learning the game, but who figures out how it’s rigged and how the system works, and ends up beating you, how is that fair?
Example: if the software is programmed in a way that will give seat 2 a winning hand every 5 hands (just humor me, it’s just an example). If I’m sitting in seat 2 and I know how the system works, and others are in the rest of the seats and they have no idea. If you, SPG, are in seat 1, and playing with skill and understanding of the game, but no clue how the system is rigged.
You see me going all in every 5 hands, and winning with the worst cards. You even call me with aces, and flushes and boats, but somehow I always beat you on the river with a miracle hand. How is that fair?
It’s an extreme example, but my whole point is, when a system is rigged, it’s unfair, whether it targets someone specific or not. All it takes is for 1 person to know how the skewing works and use it to their advantage. That’s my opinion.
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OK, I just started playing again at RP and have been playing at Pokerstars and Pureplay and what I think is going on is these websites that use online poker software are all using the same code and it is designed intentionally to not let you win too much because they need you to buy chips to stay in business.
So you will notice when you start reaching certain chip amounts you will start hitting alot of bad hands to bring your amount back down but if you buy more chips you start winning again.
That is not hard to code in and I have seen it happen alot when you reach certain levels of chips.
A tale tale sign is if you see a long pause as the code searches for the river card but not on other cards.
Just my opinion.
well i guess u could say that those that take the time to learn the rigging and skewing would have an advantage too, i guess anyone could take the time to learn those if they want, just like learning the odds and rest of the game. so is it unfair for those not learning the skewing and rigging? i guess u would need to be tech savvy which i am not. but what fun is the game if you dont use good poker skills?
in some sense I know what program is doing once I see a flop or certain cards are dealt to me. I can fold these hands just based on previous experiences and they happen over and over… so I can stay in a tournament longer because I can recognize what the program is doing to me in a particular situation. Maya you know this be true because we have spoken many times through private conversations on replay.
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“IF” the software is skewed, taking the time to learn exactly how it’s skewed doesn’t give anyone an unfair advantage, because the opportunity to learn the system is there for everyone.
If people think flushes and straights come more often, more people will play any flush or straight draw and more people will hit flushes and straights. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy. Adapting to this environment is part of the game.
Replay could end this debate if they wanted to: make it so we can download our hand histories. We could then use analytical software and get actual statistical data. They could even enter into an affiliate agreement with the software company and generate some additional income.
While they are at it they should update their pRNG certs. The existing one is from 2011.
True. Very true. However, this would be unfair to those who are here to play poker, and learn poker skills, and NOT learn how the system is skewed and how to work around it. Hence the unfairness.
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exactly. not really learned any poker skills. I have learned to fold or not to bet/raise in situations. plenty of times I have played a tournament and after a hand is over, I would say and that is I why fold AK, AQ, AJ or any pocket pair. the response has been how can you fold? I respond back by saying I know what program is doing.
wow
Run KK through an odds calculator with 8 players active at the table and your odds of winning are about 32.6%. Here is a link to one I use. Enter KK, select 8 seats, press enter and it calculates the odds.
Good Luck
cool tool, but this doesn’t help this situation. even if all 3 of us had limped in none of us was going to fold. I just never seen a flopped set over set over set like that. just sick hand.