Seeking feedback on how I played an MTT hand


#1

Hi everyone,

  • SORRY FOR ALL THE EDITS…thinking about it more.
    Let me first start by saying that I am a NLHE poker novice/beginner and have tons to learn about the game. Currently, the effort I put into learning I’ve geared much more to my personal preferences than to that which would be required to become much better. Long story short: I’m taking it slow, but likely eventually intend on someday seriously studying/learning.
    Anyways, I made a shove in an MTT last night and I would like to get some feedback from players to see if it was a horrible move, an okay move, or a good move. My initial HINDSIGHT thoughts are that I likely risked too much at too early a stage in the tournament. My best thoughts are that my biggest mistake (if there were any made at all) would be that the chips I stood to gain were not worth taking the risk of the chips I stood to lose. Where I am learning and not that good, I am unsure, and would like to get feedback from better and/or great players. Of course, anyone is certainly welcome to respond; I am hoping to receive replies from players such as 1Warlock, floridajetski, aoeu, JoeDirk, moeron (who was actually at the table), SharonSmarty, SunPowerGuru, Maya-, etc.

Below is as much background information I can recall to provide that is not necessarily explicitly provided in the hand replay:

  • 48 minutes into the tournament, still in the early stages.
  • I would highly imagine every player at the table to be significantly better than me.
  • My best guess is that the table perceived me as a mildly solid player who plays an okay game, but one with holes. Fairly solid overall, but certainly needs a lot of work and more experience.
  • I would say I am a tight player shading from slightly passive to more aggressive, and that the table likely thought/picked up the same vibe.
  • I don’t typically go all-in pre-flop unless the play is inevitably required/merited (extremely short-stacked, for example).
    -My intentions: I wanted to shake things up. With my hand, I wanted to force out my opponents and go heads-up. I thought I could accomplish this by making an over the top move out of position. I knew to 3-bet the large open raise would require something substantial.
  • I expected a broad range of hands to be played by the initial raiser, but the size of the bet narrowed it to what I would say could only likely be a very good starting hand. I guess for some reason I expected QQ, AKs, J10s, pocket 10’s, 99, 88 I thought with the 10-8 pairs a coin toss might be worth it, I guess? Perhaps I also should have given consideration to those who limped in - that they may have done so with a monster, before shoving all-in. I just thought in this spot that it was unlikely, and I held a good enough hand regardless in order to hold up??

Please review the hand and let me know if I made an acceptable move. If it was a bad move, what should I have done differently? Thank you very much for your time and feedback.

https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/430264598

Summary

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#2

I would have just called his bet to see the flop , he would have probably bet big with his trip 10’s and I would have called , once I saw the turn and knew I had the flush , then I would have gone all in and ended up with the same result you did … losing to quads is a tough beat . I am not a great player so probably telling you what I would have done won’t be the best advice but you had no way of knowing he had 10 10 in his hand so pretty much no matter how you played it you still would have lost. I wish you the best of luck on this site and hope someone with more knowledge will give you better advice.


#3

Thank you for your reply. His set would have been well disguised on the flop, so yes, I would have likely called his bet on the flop with the strong flush draw. Making it on the turn I’d bet big, I could certainly see him calling and then ending up with the same result…a bad beat on the river…,so, I guess on the same page if I had played pre-flop a little differently with a call. Thanks so much!


#4

You absolutely need to 3 bet here. Your play was 100% correct. AK is a very strong hand that flips against pairs and crushes any non-pairs that might call a 3 bet (AQ, etc). The only hands that you have to fear are AA or KK, but you hold an ace and a king, so button is less likely to have AA or KK. When you 3 bet, you fold out hands that have a decent chance to beat you (like 77, 88, JTs etc ). If you call, you will only hit a pair a third of the time and a flush draw 10% of the time. Most of the time, you miss the flop and have to fold to a cbet.

Even if you bust, it’s not that big of a deal since this is still the early stages. You still need to accumulate chips to make it to the payout.

As a side note, I doubt most players on replay are this observant.

Good hand reading. If he raises JTs, he probably raises AQ, KQ, QJs, KJs, AJs, too. That makes squeezing AK much more profitable.


#5

Thank you very much for the insightful response. Yes, exactly, I didn’t expect the bullets or cowboys because I had one of each. Very true points about busting out early and the accumulation to the payout. Great point about him also raising with the connected face cards! Also, good point regarding the observance, really. I’ve been on a table with Bison48 and dizzyrabbitt a couple times before, I’m pretty sure, but the others hardly, if ever…and that easily could have been the case what you said. Thanks again.


#6

This’s been the story for past couple of days. Numerous draws, straight losing to full house, flush losing to full house, two pairs losing to sets, stuck in a high pair to see swept by a straight or two pairs, etc.


#7

Well… You had a good three way hit and high cards but in that situation I Think I would have called and seen the flop.

He would have the 10 on the flop and you have 4 Diamonds so he probably would have bet big again and if you called you have the flush in the next card.

That would have been the time to push or go all in as you have your hand and a flush would be obvious so he would be more likely to fold.

However, if I was in his situation with trip 10s and a card coming I would still call your all in and hope for a full house or that 10.

So it still probably would have turned out the same way.

You took a bigger risk on the all in and and any little pair would have beat you if the flop went south so maybe slow down and just call to see that flop next time.

Just my opinion and other people may see it differently.

Thanks for sharing the hand.


#8

The outcome will be the same but assuming that rarely happens i would play it this way. You have the highest suited connectors as your pocket AK great hand however he did raise a good amount for the beginning of the tourney so u have to assume he has some higher pocket pair, JJ, QQ etc. so i would either #1 call his bet ( not re raise him ) and see the flop 1st because u dont have even a pair yet and know he most likely does, or #2 re raise and double him up pre flop to isolate the hand by weeding the other players out so you are now heads up with him ( keep in mind this will have most or all others fold which is the reason for that but u run the risk of him re re raising you to an all in bet, so if u double him up be prepared to call his all in or lose double his initial bet if u fold. Most of the time i would play #2 depending on the players on the table and how far into the tourney it is and how well stacked i am and how much your coverage is compared to his stack. After i see the flop i know i am sitting well with an Ace high flush draw and at best he has trips, from there no matter what he bets i will see the turn, I catch my Nut flush and at best he still has trips, now he will shove all in knowing you may have a flush draw and he doesnt wanna see another card that shows a river diamond. Now river hits and only a Boat or Quads can take you, Quads did, cant do anything about it, bottom line bad beat, but u wont see that happen again for a long time so accept it and hopefully it will be you with the Quads next time. How i would play that if i were him ? I would have raised like he did pre flop then i woulda folded to your all in with pocket 10s so early in the tourney because your all in shows probable pocket pair face cards and i dont wanna risk the whole tourney on that hand. Now if u choose #2 if i were him i would call your bet, now i have trips on flop, 2 diamonds flopping i will shove at least half my chips in if not all. Turn hits i must go all in now with a most likely flush draw out there that could beat my trips on the river.


#9

I think aoeu’s analysis was spot on.

You obviously can’t fold there and you can’t just call, so moving in was your best option.

I also suspect you were well below the tournament’s average chip count. If you stay below the average, you can never win, if you stay above the average, you can never lose. If you were well behind average, you should have been looking for a good spot to get back on track.

The only thing (other than AA or KK) that would have concerned me was the 3 limpers . There’s a very good chance at least 1 of them had an ace or king, and thebf almost certainly had either a pair or an Ax or Kx type hand. This might have made me lean more towards a call there, but with 2 overs and a nut flush draw, I would have shoved the flop anyway.

Bad break running into quads, but eh, you gotta do what you gotta do.


#10

The real question is what would u do if u had that nut flush draw after the turn and he goes all in. Basically u are risking your whole tourney on trying to catch a diamond. I know what i would do but it would depend on the size of the tourney buy in, 250k and up tourneys i may fold, and deff would fold if im at the final table and they had my chips covered, every other tourney and rings i would call almost every time. Also if the 3rd diamond didnt hit til the river then would u call her all in with your trip 10s ( assuming the quads didnt hit ) However i still must say 10J suited is one of my favorite hands with so many outs and i try and play them every time if the price is right but i still wouldnt re raise all in on AK suited but i would re raise quite a bit to eliminate the competition to that 1 player so your chances increase.


#11

If you mean you just called preflop and the river went check check, you would be less than 2-1 (and no implied odds) on a turn call. Your ace and king outs would be dead to any set, and you aren’t in great shape vs hands like A10 or K10. I would almost always fold there.

Again, there’s a good chance 1 or more of the limpers had an ace or a king, and I think this has to factor into any decisions you make. I think you can find a better spot to risk your tournament on.


#12

If I had top set from the turn, I would call an allin vs a flush draw every time. You’re fading 9 outs, and 2 of them could make you a boat… there’s no reason to fold there. The same basic reasoning is true from the flop too, but you do have a better chance of losing.


#13

I was meaning having the nut flush draw after the turn and he bets all in with his trips. Meaning chasing for diamond on the river with 2 10s out there now so only a boat or quads could take u out if u hit and you are banking on a diamond hitting and hoping a nut flush would be enough to take home the pot.


#14

I you aren’t getting good enough pot odds to chase the flush there.


#15

I responded to your question above and since you shared a hand from that tourney here is my hand that I kicked myself over losing:

https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/430476534

I had pocket aces and slow played them to get more people to see the flop and a bigger pot and lost to a K8 two pair.

This is early in the tourney and I got greedy and was hoping to felt a few people and really load up my stack and it backfired on me.

If I had went all in I don’t know if he would have stayed with just a K8 but I didn’t know what he had down of course and his open bet indicated it was not a big pair so I should have went all in pre-flop.

That was a make or break hand for me and it went down hill from there lol.

Feel free to analyze it and say how you would have played it.


#16

yes i absolutely would call all in with my trip 10s because the only hand that could beat me on that particular board would be a flush with player having suited pockets, and i know i have the 10 so im in good shape as far as all the possible trips out there. I would do it all day long in rings too, however lf i was in a 250k or higher tourney i would probably fold because the play is much tighter with better players in general, so on those tables i am seeing 3 same suit cards on board with an all in after then i am re thinking my call substantially knowing a flush is very probable.


#17

OK, I will admit to being a little confused. Yes, this is my normal state, but still…

Could I lay down trips vs an allin with 3 of one suit on the board? Yes, I think I could. Well, I hope I could anyway. It really depends on who I’m against and whatever tendencies I have observed. There’s no shame in laying the best hand down if there’s a good chance you are up against a made flush.

As you mentioned, it’s an easier call in a ring game.


#18

@lad44 perfectly played in my opinion, if you feel like you have a significant edge over the opponent you can consider calling his preflop raise and see a flop and go from there (yes this would lead to the same result).Playing out of position (first to act) can be hard, but with a hand like AKdd its fine given stack size you either hit TPTK or a decent draw which are both easy to play. With this hand i would say a combination of calling / raise of like 70/30 would be ideal. Shove all non suited AK and JJ+ for value orso


#19

@lad44 I don’t have much to add to what has been said. You have played it correctly and I totally agree with Sharon, aoeu, NoBluf and SPG. They have all laid it out perfectly.
Best of luck!


#20

Preflop is standard. You want to charge others for limping with a weak range.

Flop bet is standard. I like the small bet size since the flop is dry and most of the time they missed. It is worth considering making a bigger bet if you know your opponent likes to call.

The sizing for the turn bet is a a bit questionable. You have to ask yourself this question when value betting: If I make this bet, will my opponent call with worse? The answer is highly dependent on the player. Replay players often make weird --and very horrible-- plays. I’ve people call down with like K2 or 56 in that spot. If you think that your opponent is that type of player go for it and charge them. However, against a reasonable player or most unknowns, they would not call since your large bet seems awfully like a value bet since you’re getting bad odds for bluffing --you need to make your opponent fold around 80% of the time to break even on a bluff that big.

Instead, I would pot the turn since once they called on the flop, they probably have a hand, and you don’t block kings. On the river, I would bet again to charge the kings and easily fold to a reraise since there are many two pair combos --KQ, KT, etc-- and few bluffs. If your opponent reraises the turn, you will be put in a tough spot, but I would fold anyways since most players on replay never bluff.